6 ms·

I'm involved in a group who come into contact with this. It's not about surveillance, it's about providing European governments, European economy and citizens w

I'm involved in a group who come into contact with this. It's not about surveillance, it's about providing European governments, European economy and citizens with electronic ID in all situations without having to rely on Google/Apple/Facebook. So you can have a secure way to login to websites, with many personas, without having to share your GAF (and thus be tracked by GAF / share GAF data with yet another party). Thales on the other hand are not what I would describe as a good actor but rather one of the "usual suspects".

closewith 4y ago
Providing governments with a de facto mandatory electronic ID for every citizen is inherently providing the means to surveil, though. I also wonder how this will be regarded in countries like Ireland, which doesn't have a national ID card and where a recent attempt to make a similar digital ID system mandatory was ruled unlawful (PSC/MyGovID).
- slartibardfast0 4y ago
  Ireland can't really do a national id scheme without mutual agreement with the UK due to the common travel area & mutual residence rights (including voting at parliamentary level upon taking residence) that are dealt with in an ad-hoc manner for many reasons. due to this, Ireland has default opt-out on justice & home affairs issues. however, as an EU citizen, I can see immediate advantages to a cautiously administered digital id. as it is, many states within the EU demand a national tax id on registration for services as simple as bike rental, such a digital id would presumably supersede such nonsense and help further the single market everyone is working towards.
- radicalbyte 4y ago
  The regulation will have to make that illegal - there are several countries who would block the regulation it if it wasn't. So the situation will be better for us than today - there will be more options providing the ID (and wallets), including highly privacy-preserving tech based on modern encryption techniques. That will make it much harder to be tracked by commercial players and much harder to be tracked legally by governments. For the blackhat / illegal security agencies: you might make it a little harder because the US-compromised companies (FAANG + MS) aren't (always) involved.
- herbstein 4y ago
  > Providing governments with a de facto mandatory electronic ID for every citizen is inherently providing the means to surveil, though. But this suggestion ain't it. Most EU countries already have a de facto mandatory electronic ID for every resident.
  - closewith 4y ago
    > But this suggestion ain't it. What's your basis for this claim? From the declared strategy, it seems perfect for abuse as a surveillance tool. > Most EU countries already have a de facto mandatory electronic ID for every resident. As stated elsewhere, my country (Ireland) does not. It's attempt at a mandatory electronic ID (MyGovID/Public Services Card) was ruled as unlawful (it's still available, but cannot be required to access government services). Strategy link: https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/priorities-2019-2024/europe-fit-digital-age/european-digital-identity_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/priorities-2019-2024/euro...
radicalbyte 4y ago
Personally I have a dim view of the companies working in this area / the working groups because so far they've not delivered anything yet have been working on it forever. You'd expect there to be a vibrant community on Github sharing Open Source implementations. Or at least speaks. Or at least something. Also there are so many bullshitters and snake-oil merchants in this field; makes you think that most of the "security" industry is a confidence game.
woodpanel 4y ago
> So you can have a secure way to login to websites, with many personas, without having to share your GAF Let's manage the beloved and accountable Eurocrats in Brussels our private Auth-infrastructure, because its not like this problem would be solvable otherwise: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31836922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31836922
- hourago 4y ago
  > accountable That's the key. European politicians are accountable to European citizens. Big corporations are not. This seems a step in the right direction.
  - woodpanel 4y ago
    > European politicians are accountable to European citizens. That joke made my day. I'm guessing Ursula von der Leyen is a real people's champ then. > * Big corporations are not. This seems a step in the right direction.* So let big corporations develop the technology? Especially those that are intertwined with the state? In otherwords, entitites where the state has created plausible deniability for itself? Great, what could go wrong?
- blitzar 4y ago
  Let's give the beloved and accountable Google / Facebook / Microsoft in the US of A our private Auth-infrastructure, because its not like this problem would be solvable otherwise, and its not like they have ever done anything with our data before that would make you wonder if they can be trusted.
  - woodpanel 4y ago
    FIDO is an open standard, that by definition doesn't store your data at GAF.
    - blitzar 4y ago
      I look forward to being able to pick up the phone to Google / Facebook / Microsoft, talk to a human and have them troubleshoot why they have locked me out of everything in the world.
cm2187 4y ago
Every time you create an entry into a log file you have surveillance. It doesn't matter whether someone is currently watching the CCTV in your bedroom if it's all on tape.
- davidhbolton 4y ago
  Or spend non-cash money - i.e. debit or credit cards. You can buy prepay credit cards that you top up with cash but I wonder how long those will exist?
cmroanirgo 4y ago
...and yet because there's only Apple and Google providing hardware that's used by the masses, exactly how is this going to work? If the environment we're using is completely contained (pwned) then how will this not be a draconian system of control? What happens when I buy debian mobile? I presume it will not be accepted because there will be no safe app. No app, no identity? No identity means you're suddenly locked out of society. What phone theft? Most people's phone security is almost non existent. What about luddites who have no mobile at all? It seems like it's 100% about control of people. And that's a privacy matter. My body, my life, my choice.
- mdp2021 4y ago
  > mobile In theory, you should be able to go on using a passport for your actual needs. In practice, it is to be seen whether this initiative will cause or not cases where "options" become "constraints".
mdp2021 4y ago
> without having to rely on G./A./F. So you can have a secure way to login to websites Said perspective is insanity: for those websites relevant to an anagraphic identity it would be dramatically abnormal to use any supposed private company related account. It would be sheer absurdity to suppose a "need" for accounts with private entities to log on to nominal services.
Asooka 4y ago
The number of websites where I would willingly use my real id is no more than five. I almost never want to have anything I write online attached visibility to my actual public identity. Anonymity is the whole point of the internet!
- swader999 4y ago
  Any functioning society needs anonymous dissent, especially a democracy.
swader999 4y ago
If that's all it is then fine. But it seems to be just the first step to what many fear will become a system tied to digital currency, speech and social credit.

closewith 4y ago

Providing governments with a de facto mandatory electronic ID for every citizen is inherently providing the means to surveil, though. I also wonder how this will be regarded in countries like Ireland, which doesn't have a national ID card and where a recent attempt to make a similar digital ID system mandatory was ruled unlawful (PSC/MyGovID).

slartibardfast0 4y ago
Ireland can't really do a national id scheme without mutual agreement with the UK due to the common travel area & mutual residence rights (including voting at parliamentary level upon taking residence) that are dealt with in an ad-hoc manner for many reasons. due to this, Ireland has default opt-out on justice & home affairs issues. however, as an EU citizen, I can see immediate advantages to a cautiously administered digital id. as it is, many states within the EU demand a national tax id on registration for services as simple as bike rental, such a digital id would presumably supersede such nonsense and help further the single market everyone is working towards.
radicalbyte 4y ago
The regulation will have to make that illegal - there are several countries who would block the regulation it if it wasn't. So the situation will be better for us than today - there will be more options providing the ID (and wallets), including highly privacy-preserving tech based on modern encryption techniques. That will make it much harder to be tracked by commercial players and much harder to be tracked legally by governments. For the blackhat / illegal security agencies: you might make it a little harder because the US-compromised companies (FAANG + MS) aren't (always) involved.
herbstein 4y ago
> Providing governments with a de facto mandatory electronic ID for every citizen is inherently providing the means to surveil, though. But this suggestion ain't it. Most EU countries already have a de facto mandatory electronic ID for every resident.
- closewith 4y ago
  > But this suggestion ain't it. What's your basis for this claim? From the declared strategy, it seems perfect for abuse as a surveillance tool. > Most EU countries already have a de facto mandatory electronic ID for every resident. As stated elsewhere, my country (Ireland) does not. It's attempt at a mandatory electronic ID (MyGovID/Public Services Card) was ruled as unlawful (it's still available, but cannot be required to access government services). Strategy link: https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/priorities-2019-2024/europe-fit-digital-age/european-digital-identity_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/priorities-2019-2024/euro...

radicalbyte 4y ago

Personally I have a dim view of the companies working in this area / the working groups because so far they've not delivered anything yet have been working on it forever. You'd expect there to be a vibrant community on Github sharing Open Source implementations. Or at least speaks. Or at least something. Also there are so many bullshitters and snake-oil merchants in this field; makes you think that most of the "security" industry is a confidence game.

woodpanel 4y ago

> So you can have a secure way to login to websites, with many personas, without having to share your GAF Let's manage the beloved and accountable Eurocrats in Brussels our private Auth-infrastructure, because its not like this problem would be solvable otherwise: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31836922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31836922

hourago 4y ago
> accountable That's the key. European politicians are accountable to European citizens. Big corporations are not. This seems a step in the right direction.
- woodpanel 4y ago
  > European politicians are accountable to European citizens. That joke made my day. I'm guessing Ursula von der Leyen is a real people's champ then. > * Big corporations are not. This seems a step in the right direction.* So let big corporations develop the technology? Especially those that are intertwined with the state? In otherwords, entitites where the state has created plausible deniability for itself? Great, what could go wrong?
blitzar 4y ago
Let's give the beloved and accountable Google / Facebook / Microsoft in the US of A our private Auth-infrastructure, because its not like this problem would be solvable otherwise, and its not like they have ever done anything with our data before that would make you wonder if they can be trusted.
- woodpanel 4y ago
  FIDO is an open standard, that by definition doesn't store your data at GAF.
  - blitzar 4y ago
    I look forward to being able to pick up the phone to Google / Facebook / Microsoft, talk to a human and have them troubleshoot why they have locked me out of everything in the world.

cm2187 4y ago

Every time you create an entry into a log file you have surveillance. It doesn't matter whether someone is currently watching the CCTV in your bedroom if it's all on tape.

davidhbolton 4y ago
Or spend non-cash money - i.e. debit or credit cards. You can buy prepay credit cards that you top up with cash but I wonder how long those will exist?

cmroanirgo 4y ago

...and yet because there's only Apple and Google providing hardware that's used by the masses, exactly how is this going to work? If the environment we're using is completely contained (pwned) then how will this not be a draconian system of control? What happens when I buy debian mobile? I presume it will not be accepted because there will be no safe app. No app, no identity? No identity means you're suddenly locked out of society. What phone theft? Most people's phone security is almost non existent. What about luddites who have no mobile at all? It seems like it's 100% about control of people. And that's a privacy matter. My body, my life, my choice.

mdp2021 4y ago
> mobile In theory, you should be able to go on using a passport for your actual needs. In practice, it is to be seen whether this initiative will cause or not cases where "options" become "constraints".

mdp2021 4y ago

> without having to rely on G./A./F. So you can have a secure way to login to websites Said perspective is insanity: for those websites relevant to an anagraphic identity it would be dramatically abnormal to use any supposed private company related account. It would be sheer absurdity to suppose a "need" for accounts with private entities to log on to nominal services.

Asooka 4y ago

The number of websites where I would willingly use my real id is no more than five. I almost never want to have anything I write online attached visibility to my actual public identity. Anonymity is the whole point of the internet!

swader999 4y ago
Any functioning society needs anonymous dissent, especially a democracy.

swader999 4y ago

If that's all it is then fine. But it seems to be just the first step to what many fear will become a system tied to digital currency, speech and social credit.