8 ms·

Just because you don't see the problem it is solving doesn't mean the problem does not exist. Some context: I'm French, I live in Belgium. I have two e-IDs car

Just because you don't see the problem it is solving doesn't mean the problem does not exist. Some context: I'm French, I live in Belgium. I have two e-IDs cards: one french, one belgian. When I need to identify myself, depending on the government I have to deal with, I have to use either my "FranceConnect" credentials, or my Belgian e-ID card. When using my Belgian eID, there is a government login called CSAM, but a lot of people here use a private company called "itsme" (https://www.itsme-id.com/ https://www.itsme-id.com/). ItsMe does not support Linux. CSAM does, but not every service that supports or even requires eID login here supports CSAM. FranceConnect is even more of a mess. French government has a plethora of online services, several with their own logins and not all support FranceConnect. Making a digital wallet won't increase surveillance... surveillance is already possible on all of this, quite easily so. What it will do is greatly simplify life for people dealing with these systems; especially for expats and new arrivals into a country, who might get stuck in the loop of "You need a bank account to get your ID" "You need an ID to open a bank account" Not to mention all the services that do their own shitty KYC and would be better served by using automated ID checking instead. Unless you think it's better and "more private" to email a photocopy of your ID and passport to somebody who will forward it three times, save it on their computer, and share it on Slack with the tech team because there's a problem with their shitty KYC system.

woodpanel 4y ago
> Making a digital wallet won't increase surveillance... surveillance is already possible on all of this, Sure, because a little minority of people has "the burden" of managing multiple IDs, lets tear down one firewall between citizenry and big-brother for the rest of us.
- malermeister 4y ago
  What's the "firewall" in this case? eIDs already exist all over the place, as demonstrated in parent. They also clearly have their use, even though they are currently frequently broken. Is the brokenness the firewall?
  - woodpanel 4y ago
    The firewall is who is accountable, who is responsible to the electorate. "Broken" no, a feature yes, because exploiting technical flaws in a country's digital ID for an attacker becomes more troublesome if each country has a (an even slightly) different implementation. Labeling it "broken" - we all are using the same password for every account anyways, aren't we?
    - malermeister 4y ago
      But we're talking about the EU here, the second largest democracy in the world. Of course they're accountable to the electorate. This isn't a dictatorship.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - woodpanel 4y ago
        Totally democratic. Of course. Europeans love it. From Berlin xHainers to Parissienne Bobos, from Munich Schwabing to Noord Amsterdam, there isn't a single citizen in the EU with discomfort of his vote becoming dilluted from a x-millionth to an x-hundredmillionth. That's why Ursula von der Leyen is so popular.
        malermeister 4y ago
        But thats just... yknow, how democracies work. More voters = less power/vote. Are you just unhappy the electorate is so large? What would the appropriate size be? Mayoral? Households? That'd really maximize the power of your vote. But then, how would we organize at the level beyond that? Warring tribes? Go back to when Germany and France were constantly at war? I don't love vdL either. I think the EU is in need of reform. But I still think it's fundamentally a good idea and I think vote dilution is just inherent to a large democracy.
        jokethrowaway 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
kabes 4y ago
What do you mean itsme does not support linux? It's a phone app, you don't need to install anything on your linux machine... However, it's not a good situation that a private company gets such a central role. In fact, Belgian government yesterday announced they're going to make their own implementation. Surely there's already eID login, but that's too cumbersome compared to itsme because it's from the pre-smartphone days.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  Are you talking about this? https://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/246070/federal-government-working-to-expand-itsme-application https://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/246070/federal-governm... The Belgian government already has an implementation: https://www.csam.be/en/egov-profile.html https://www.csam.be/en/egov-profile.html I don't use itsme, only CSAM, because itsme does not support Linux: I can't log in with Firefox or Chrome on Linux with my eID. But CSAM is not universally supported. Example of a site that does not support it: https://www.proximus.be/ https://www.proximus.be/ - Major ISP in Belgium)
  - sam_lowry_ 4y ago
    Itsme is an authentication token, like eID. You can login to CSAM protected websites on Linux with Firefox or Chromium and with Itsme token running on Android or iPhone. You can also login on Linux with Firefox or Chromium and with your eID card inserted in a properly configured card reader such as ACR-38U.
    - seszett 4y ago
      I'm not sure because I don't use itsme anymore (it stopped working on jailbroken devices a while ago, so I just switched to TOTP auth with CSAM) but if I remember correctly the initial setup of itsme doesn't work on Linux, as it requires a browser plugin for the card reader that doesn't run on Linux. CSAM uses a different browser plugin that does work on Linux.
      - 4y ago
judge2020 4y ago
> a government login called CSAM, but a lot of people here use a private company called "itsme" It probably doesn't help that the CSAM term has an overlap with another english abbreviation.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  Belgium is not an English speaking country.
TacticalCoder 4y ago
> When I need to identify myself, depending on the government I have to deal with, I have to use either my "FranceConnect" credentials, or my Belgian e-ID card. That you even have to identify yourself as often as you do in the EU is a problem the EU countries created. So basically they create a problem (people needing to identify for basically everything: vaccine, going to the restaurant, going to nightclubs, maybe going to the toilet in the future, etc.) and then come up with a solution: "Look, it's going to get easier to identify yourself!" and everybody applauds. But, wait, why do I need to be identified all the time yet?
- scrollaway 4y ago
  Yeah. No. I identify myself when I log in to my utilities providers, my bank, when I do my taxes or handle some other government related stuff. I have no idea what you’re on and I’d love to know where I can get some.
- drawfloat 4y ago
  This might shock you but none of those things need ID in most EU countries.
_Algernon_ 4y ago
>Making a digital wallet won't increase surveillance... There is no reason to believe that. You are installing a government app on a gps device with a constant internet connection. Even if it doesn't send such data initially, there is no way for a regular user to know that some forced update in the future wont introduce it. At least before they would have to go through the courts to get a warrant to get it from google or apple.
- herewulf 4y ago
  Disable the app's location permission?
  - petre 4y ago
    Most of them don't even work without location. The location permission is also tied to the wifi because Google had the means to pinpoint your accurate location using wifi hotspots.
    - vegai_ 4y ago
      Perhaps don't use Google products if privacy is at all important to you.

woodpanel 4y ago

> Making a digital wallet won't increase surveillance... surveillance is already possible on all of this, Sure, because a little minority of people has "the burden" of managing multiple IDs, lets tear down one firewall between citizenry and big-brother for the rest of us.

malermeister 4y ago
What's the "firewall" in this case? eIDs already exist all over the place, as demonstrated in parent. They also clearly have their use, even though they are currently frequently broken. Is the brokenness the firewall?
- woodpanel 4y ago
  The firewall is who is accountable, who is responsible to the electorate. "Broken" no, a feature yes, because exploiting technical flaws in a country's digital ID for an attacker becomes more troublesome if each country has a (an even slightly) different implementation. Labeling it "broken" - we all are using the same password for every account anyways, aren't we?
  - malermeister 4y ago
    But we're talking about the EU here, the second largest democracy in the world. Of course they're accountable to the electorate. This isn't a dictatorship.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - woodpanel 4y ago
      Totally democratic. Of course. Europeans love it. From Berlin xHainers to Parissienne Bobos, from Munich Schwabing to Noord Amsterdam, there isn't a single citizen in the EU with discomfort of his vote becoming dilluted from a x-millionth to an x-hundredmillionth. That's why Ursula von der Leyen is so popular.
      - malermeister 4y ago
        But thats just... yknow, how democracies work. More voters = less power/vote. Are you just unhappy the electorate is so large? What would the appropriate size be? Mayoral? Households? That'd really maximize the power of your vote. But then, how would we organize at the level beyond that? Warring tribes? Go back to when Germany and France were constantly at war? I don't love vdL either. I think the EU is in need of reform. But I still think it's fundamentally a good idea and I think vote dilution is just inherent to a large democracy.
        jokethrowaway 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

kabes 4y ago

What do you mean itsme does not support linux? It's a phone app, you don't need to install anything on your linux machine... However, it's not a good situation that a private company gets such a central role. In fact, Belgian government yesterday announced they're going to make their own implementation. Surely there's already eID login, but that's too cumbersome compared to itsme because it's from the pre-smartphone days.

scrollaway 4y ago
Are you talking about this? https://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/246070/federal-government-working-to-expand-itsme-application https://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/246070/federal-governm... The Belgian government already has an implementation: https://www.csam.be/en/egov-profile.html https://www.csam.be/en/egov-profile.html I don't use itsme, only CSAM, because itsme does not support Linux: I can't log in with Firefox or Chrome on Linux with my eID. But CSAM is not universally supported. Example of a site that does not support it: https://www.proximus.be/ https://www.proximus.be/ - Major ISP in Belgium)
- sam_lowry_ 4y ago
  Itsme is an authentication token, like eID. You can login to CSAM protected websites on Linux with Firefox or Chromium and with Itsme token running on Android or iPhone. You can also login on Linux with Firefox or Chromium and with your eID card inserted in a properly configured card reader such as ACR-38U.
  - seszett 4y ago
    I'm not sure because I don't use itsme anymore (it stopped working on jailbroken devices a while ago, so I just switched to TOTP auth with CSAM) but if I remember correctly the initial setup of itsme doesn't work on Linux, as it requires a browser plugin for the card reader that doesn't run on Linux. CSAM uses a different browser plugin that does work on Linux.
    - 4y ago

judge2020 4y ago

> a government login called CSAM, but a lot of people here use a private company called "itsme" It probably doesn't help that the CSAM term has an overlap with another english abbreviation.

scrollaway 4y ago
Belgium is not an English speaking country.

TacticalCoder 4y ago

> When I need to identify myself, depending on the government I have to deal with, I have to use either my "FranceConnect" credentials, or my Belgian e-ID card. That you even have to identify yourself as often as you do in the EU is a problem the EU countries created. So basically they create a problem (people needing to identify for basically everything: vaccine, going to the restaurant, going to nightclubs, maybe going to the toilet in the future, etc.) and then come up with a solution: "Look, it's going to get easier to identify yourself!" and everybody applauds. But, wait, why do I need to be identified all the time yet?

scrollaway 4y ago
Yeah. No. I identify myself when I log in to my utilities providers, my bank, when I do my taxes or handle some other government related stuff. I have no idea what you’re on and I’d love to know where I can get some.
drawfloat 4y ago
This might shock you but none of those things need ID in most EU countries.

_Algernon_ 4y ago

>Making a digital wallet won't increase surveillance... There is no reason to believe that. You are installing a government app on a gps device with a constant internet connection. Even if it doesn't send such data initially, there is no way for a regular user to know that some forced update in the future wont introduce it. At least before they would have to go through the courts to get a warrant to get it from google or apple.

herewulf 4y ago
Disable the app's location permission?
- petre 4y ago
  Most of them don't even work without location. The location permission is also tied to the wifi because Google had the means to pinpoint your accurate location using wifi hotspots.
  - vegai_ 4y ago
    Perhaps don't use Google products if privacy is at all important to you.