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> But the data doesn't back that up. According to the EU, the US has 40% higher GDP per capita [1] compared to the EU. And that's according to the EU, which has

by Mo3 4y ago

> But the data doesn't back that up. According to the EU, the US has 40% higher GDP per capita [1] compared to the EU. And that's according to the EU, which has to be the most biased source possible. The US is the richest country in the history of modern civilisation, yet in every possible metric worse then the rest of the developed world, sometimes less than even some third world countries. I would argue that GDP per capita is not necessarily a good indicator when most of the GDP goes into the pockets of the ultra rich and parasitic middlemen instead of back to the population, no? This is also a form of lack of efficiency. > That isn't true, at least for me and many other software engineers. Sales tax is definitely lower in the US because we don't have VAT - typical rates are 7-10% vs. 12-20% in EU. Income tax is also lower in the US. According to this calculator [2] I would pay about 10% lower income tax effective rate on my current income in the US vs. Berlin, Germany. My health insurance costs <$2000/year for a high tier plan so that cost is negligible. Payroll tax for companies is lower. Gas tax is lower, by a substantial margin. Sorry, no, obviously any generalisation is not valid for every single individual case, so that's why I was talking about a mean of the population and not specifically you. However, if we were to start contemplating e.g. how much your health insurance even covers and how much you pay in co-pay (spoiler, its $0 here), even if we don't, we are still surprisingly close to each other, aren't we - and then, considering how much value you receive back of it.. it's not going into your crumbling infrastructure either. > Are they? Your factory workers get free breakfast, lunch, dinner, multi-thousand dollar offsites and dinners, and the ability to invest your salary in the (private) company? Actual factory workers, no, but you think our highly skilled workers don't get this? Of course they do, again, maybe only 100k instead of 300k salary off some VC funding, on the other hand you're not going to be spending 100k for stuff we get for free and the janitor and everyone else is not treated like a slave either. Don't you think it is a very reasonable assumption that in a functioning society every part, no matter how skilled or not, has to function properly and be healthy? You yourself are also dependent on every other part functioning properly. > why SWE wages are so high here Great, and they are part of an unsustainable bubble and destroying the whole balance between supply and demand, causing inevitable rise to homelessness, crime, mental illness and drug epidemics. I think I'm starting to understand what they mean with "driving over bodies" > That ends up reflecting in your pay (or lack thereof). The market rate for wages will be lower because the month of vacation will be priced in. This is correct. > And a skilled worker is going to have a way better life in the US. No. He will statistically die sooner, receive some of the worst healthcare in the entire world, live in the midst of poverty and crime, and will have considerable less time to actually live his life. > You consider things like guaranteed job protection as benefits, but I see them as lowering my pay Only until you realise that this also applies to yourself, and then consider that you are much more likely to suffer from chronic illness, depression and burnout. I mean, I do understand your perspective from a very egoistical standpoint, but please just take a look at your country and how that's working out for you these days.

ceeplusplus 4y ago
> I would argue that GDP per capita is not necessarily a good indicator when most of the GDP goes into the pockets of the ultra rich instead of back to the population, no? This is also a form of lack of efficiency. That is your opinion. Output per person (GDP per capita) is the objective measure of efficiency. Also, European taxes on capital gains are about the same as the US, so in fact EU is not really taxing the ultra-wealthy any more than the US. High wage earners are taxed instead, but high wage earners are not ultra-wealthy. > Sorry, no, obviously any generalisation is not valid for every single individual case, so that's why I was talking about a mean of the population and not specifically you. Again, that's not supported by the data [1]. > However, if we were to start contemplating e.g. how much your health insurance even covers and how much you pay in co-pay (spoiler, its $0 here), even if we don't, we are still surprisingly close to each other, aren't we - and then, considering how much value you receive back of it.. My health insurance might not have $0 copay but it is low enough that a doctor's visit costs about as much as a dine-in casual lunch would. And I get higher quality doctors, since our doctors make 6-7 figures compared to maximum 100k of EU doctors (the NHS in the UK pays less than 100k GBP for specialist doctors...), so all the talent gets vacuumed up by the US. And they are not surprisingly close - I ran the numbers with my US income. My income for the same position in EU would be halved or more. So the actual gap in net income after tax and health insurance would be substantially larger. > No, but you think our highly skilled workers don't get this? Of course they do Do the engineers at your company get that benefit? How much money do you think they can realistically invest when they make half of their American counterparts and get taxed at 35-40%? > Great, and they are destroying the whole balance between supply and demand, causing inevitable rise to homelessness, crime, mental illness and drug epidemics These things are caused by a failure to build housing and prosecute petty theft, not by high wages. > Our minimum wage is still twice as high as yours. Netherlands minimum wage is 10.14 EUR/h [2] while CA minimum wage is $14-15/h [3]. And in practice, the wages for low skill workers in CA are around $20/h now due to market demand. Not only that, but the unemployment rate (and particularly the youth unemployment rate which is a proxy for unskilled labor) is much higher in EU. > No. He will statistically die sooner, receive some of the worst healthcare in the entire world, live in the midst of poverty and crime, etc etc etc. You are trying to make inferences about a high earner from statistics about the median. That's egregiously incorrect. > But at least you yourself earn twice as much. Sounds reasonable. Again, that's your opinion that it's unreasonable. As long as skilled workers continue to migrate from EU to the US due to the higher wages, your opinion is irrelevant. And if you take a look at the makeup of any top ranked master's or PhD program today in STEM or business in the US, you will see that it is 30% European, 30% Chinese, 30% Indian. So I think the market does not really care about your opinion. [1] https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxe... [2] https://www.government.nl/topics/minimum-wage/amount-of-the-hourly-minimum-wage https://www.government.nl/topics/minimum-wage/amount-of-the-... [3] https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_minimumwage.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_minimumwage.htm

by Mo3 4y ago

ceeplusplus 4y ago

> I would argue that GDP per capita is not necessarily a good indicator when most of the GDP goes into the pockets of the ultra rich instead of back to the population, no? This is also a form of lack of efficiency. That is your opinion. Output per person (GDP per capita) is the objective measure of efficiency. Also, European taxes on capital gains are about the same as the US, so in fact EU is not really taxing the ultra-wealthy any more than the US. High wage earners are taxed instead, but high wage earners are not ultra-wealthy. > Sorry, no, obviously any generalisation is not valid for every single individual case, so that's why I was talking about a mean of the population and not specifically you. Again, that's not supported by the data [1]. > However, if we were to start contemplating e.g. how much your health insurance even covers and how much you pay in co-pay (spoiler, its $0 here), even if we don't, we are still surprisingly close to each other, aren't we - and then, considering how much value you receive back of it.. My health insurance might not have $0 copay but it is low enough that a doctor's visit costs about as much as a dine-in casual lunch would. And I get higher quality doctors, since our doctors make 6-7 figures compared to maximum 100k of EU doctors (the NHS in the UK pays less than 100k GBP for specialist doctors...), so all the talent gets vacuumed up by the US. And they are not surprisingly close - I ran the numbers with my US income. My income for the same position in EU would be halved or more. So the actual gap in net income after tax and health insurance would be substantially larger. > No, but you think our highly skilled workers don't get this? Of course they do Do the engineers at your company get that benefit? How much money do you think they can realistically invest when they make half of their American counterparts and get taxed at 35-40%? > Great, and they are destroying the whole balance between supply and demand, causing inevitable rise to homelessness, crime, mental illness and drug epidemics These things are caused by a failure to build housing and prosecute petty theft, not by high wages. > Our minimum wage is still twice as high as yours. Netherlands minimum wage is 10.14 EUR/h [2] while CA minimum wage is $14-15/h [3]. And in practice, the wages for low skill workers in CA are around $20/h now due to market demand. Not only that, but the unemployment rate (and particularly the youth unemployment rate which is a proxy for unskilled labor) is much higher in EU. > No. He will statistically die sooner, receive some of the worst healthcare in the entire world, live in the midst of poverty and crime, etc etc etc. You are trying to make inferences about a high earner from statistics about the median. That's egregiously incorrect. > But at least you yourself earn twice as much. Sounds reasonable. Again, that's your opinion that it's unreasonable. As long as skilled workers continue to migrate from EU to the US due to the higher wages, your opinion is irrelevant. And if you take a look at the makeup of any top ranked master's or PhD program today in STEM or business in the US, you will see that it is 30% European, 30% Chinese, 30% Indian. So I think the market does not really care about your opinion. [1] https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxes-compare-internationally https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-us-taxe... [2] https://www.government.nl/topics/minimum-wage/amount-of-the-hourly-minimum-wage https://www.government.nl/topics/minimum-wage/amount-of-the-... [3] https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_minimumwage.htm https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_minimumwage.htm