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> I assume it's simply because we produce value with more efficiency and less initial funding. But the data doesn't back that up. According to the EU, the US h

> I assume it's simply because we produce value with more efficiency and less initial funding. But the data doesn't back that up. According to the EU, the US has 40% higher GDP per capita [1] compared to the EU. And that's according to the EU, which has to be the most biased source possible. > US citizens are paying, if you take local, state, sales, etc tax and healthcare premiums into account, the same or in some cases even more taxes than Europeans do That isn't true, at least for me and many other software engineers. Sales tax is definitely lower in the US because we don't have VAT - typical rates are 7-10% vs. 12-20% in EU. Income tax is also lower in the US. According to this calculator [2] I would pay about 10% lower income tax effective rate on my current income in the US vs. Berlin, Germany. My health insurance costs <$2000/year for a high tier plan so that cost is negligible. Payroll tax for companies is lower. Gas tax is lower, by a substantial margin. > So.. this is pretty much what I'm on about. And I can guarantee you that they have dramatically less expense, overhead and a dramatically higher standard of work. What's your point - that EU does have parasitic companies which produce no value or does not? You seem to be flip flopping. And I can tell you the only reason the EU has dramatically less expense is the workers make less. A lot less. I make double what my counterparts in the EU are making. They definitely don't have a higher standard of work either. > The thing is, our "factory workers" are getting, BY DEFAULT, better benefits than even the most highly advanced Silicon Valley "impact makers" Are they? Your factory workers get free breakfast, lunch, dinner, multi-thousand dollar offsites and dinners, and the ability to invest your salary in the (private) company? You consider things like guaranteed job protection as benefits, but I see them as lowering my pay and reducing the number of jobs available. There's a reason why European unemployment is 300 basis points higher than US and why far more startups are started in the US. Banning non-competes and at-will employment in California are the #1 reason why SWE wages are so high here. You may value work-life balance over pay, but that is a personal choice and not an objectively superior option. Some of us are willing to work hard to become wealthy, others are fine where they are. > a month of mandatory paid vacation That ends up reflecting in your pay (or lack thereof). The market rate for wages will be lower because the month of vacation will be priced in. > THE JANITOR. Everyone. The janitor's benefits are irrelevant. I already said unskilled workers do better in EU. Your original comment was about white collar workers in companies. That means skilled workers. And a skilled worker is going to have a way better life in the US. > Yes, our wages for highly skilled workers are not as high as some insane 300k FAANG jobs Not as high is one way of putting it. According to levels.fyi the gap is 2-3x for a senior SWE in most FAANG or FAANG adjacent companies. > I'd rather have it this way and the janitor happy as well. And you are entitled to have that opinion, but you shouldn't go around claiming that US companies are "extremely inefficient" or that the environment is "hostile towards efficiency and creativity". [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/portlet_file_entry/2995521/2-19052020-BP-EN.pdf/bb14f7f9-fc26-8aa1-60d4-7c2b509dda8e https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/portlet_file_entry/2... [2] https://www.arbeitnow.com/tools/salary-calculator/germany https://www.arbeitnow.com/tools/salary-calculator/germany

Mo3 4y ago
> But the data doesn't back that up. According to the EU, the US has 40% higher GDP per capita [1] compared to the EU. And that's according to the EU, which has to be the most biased source possible. The US is the richest country in the history of modern civilisation, yet in every possible metric worse then the rest of the developed world, sometimes less than even some third world countries. I would argue that GDP per capita is not necessarily a good indicator when most of the GDP goes into the pockets of the ultra rich and parasitic middlemen instead of back to the population, no? This is also a form of lack of efficiency. > That isn't true, at least for me and many other software engineers. Sales tax is definitely lower in the US because we don't have VAT - typical rates are 7-10% vs. 12-20% in EU. Income tax is also lower in the US. According to this calculator [2] I would pay about 10% lower income tax effective rate on my current income in the US vs. Berlin, Germany. My health insurance costs <$2000/year for a high tier plan so that cost is negligible. Payroll tax for companies is lower. Gas tax is lower, by a substantial margin. Sorry, no, obviously any generalisation is not valid for every single individual case, so that's why I was talking about a mean of the population and not specifically you. However, if we were to start contemplating e.g. how much your health insurance even covers and how much you pay in co-pay (spoiler, its $0 here), even if we don't, we are still surprisingly close to each other, aren't we - and then, considering how much value you receive back of it.. it's not going into your crumbling infrastructure either. > Are they? Your factory workers get free breakfast, lunch, dinner, multi-thousand dollar offsites and dinners, and the ability to invest your salary in the (private) company? Actual factory workers, no, but you think our highly skilled workers don't get this? Of course they do, again, maybe only 100k instead of 300k salary off some VC funding, on the other hand you're not going to be spending 100k for stuff we get for free and the janitor and everyone else is not treated like a slave either. Don't you think it is a very reasonable assumption that in a functioning society every part, no matter how skilled or not, has to function properly and be healthy? You yourself are also dependent on every other part functioning properly. > why SWE wages are so high here Great, and they are part of an unsustainable bubble and destroying the whole balance between supply and demand, causing inevitable rise to homelessness, crime, mental illness and drug epidemics. I think I'm starting to understand what they mean with "driving over bodies" > That ends up reflecting in your pay (or lack thereof). The market rate for wages will be lower because the month of vacation will be priced in. This is correct. > And a skilled worker is going to have a way better life in the US. No. He will statistically die sooner, receive some of the worst healthcare in the entire world, live in the midst of poverty and crime, and will have considerable less time to actually live his life. > You consider things like guaranteed job protection as benefits, but I see them as lowering my pay Only until you realise that this also applies to yourself, and then consider that you are much more likely to suffer from chronic illness, depression and burnout. I mean, I do understand your perspective from a very egoistical standpoint, but please just take a look at your country and how that's working out for you these days.

Mo3 4y ago

> But the data doesn't back that up. According to the EU, the US has 40% higher GDP per capita [1] compared to the EU. And that's according to the EU, which has to be the most biased source possible. The US is the richest country in the history of modern civilisation, yet in every possible metric worse then the rest of the developed world, sometimes less than even some third world countries. I would argue that GDP per capita is not necessarily a good indicator when most of the GDP goes into the pockets of the ultra rich and parasitic middlemen instead of back to the population, no? This is also a form of lack of efficiency. > That isn't true, at least for me and many other software engineers. Sales tax is definitely lower in the US because we don't have VAT - typical rates are 7-10% vs. 12-20% in EU. Income tax is also lower in the US. According to this calculator [2] I would pay about 10% lower income tax effective rate on my current income in the US vs. Berlin, Germany. My health insurance costs <$2000/year for a high tier plan so that cost is negligible. Payroll tax for companies is lower. Gas tax is lower, by a substantial margin. Sorry, no, obviously any generalisation is not valid for every single individual case, so that's why I was talking about a mean of the population and not specifically you. However, if we were to start contemplating e.g. how much your health insurance even covers and how much you pay in co-pay (spoiler, its $0 here), even if we don't, we are still surprisingly close to each other, aren't we - and then, considering how much value you receive back of it.. it's not going into your crumbling infrastructure either. > Are they? Your factory workers get free breakfast, lunch, dinner, multi-thousand dollar offsites and dinners, and the ability to invest your salary in the (private) company? Actual factory workers, no, but you think our highly skilled workers don't get this? Of course they do, again, maybe only 100k instead of 300k salary off some VC funding, on the other hand you're not going to be spending 100k for stuff we get for free and the janitor and everyone else is not treated like a slave either. Don't you think it is a very reasonable assumption that in a functioning society every part, no matter how skilled or not, has to function properly and be healthy? You yourself are also dependent on every other part functioning properly. > why SWE wages are so high here Great, and they are part of an unsustainable bubble and destroying the whole balance between supply and demand, causing inevitable rise to homelessness, crime, mental illness and drug epidemics. I think I'm starting to understand what they mean with "driving over bodies" > That ends up reflecting in your pay (or lack thereof). The market rate for wages will be lower because the month of vacation will be priced in. This is correct. > And a skilled worker is going to have a way better life in the US. No. He will statistically die sooner, receive some of the worst healthcare in the entire world, live in the midst of poverty and crime, and will have considerable less time to actually live his life. > You consider things like guaranteed job protection as benefits, but I see them as lowering my pay Only until you realise that this also applies to yourself, and then consider that you are much more likely to suffer from chronic illness, depression and burnout. I mean, I do understand your perspective from a very egoistical standpoint, but please just take a look at your country and how that's working out for you these days.