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Guess what happens if they decide to build that fleet of space bubbles: Hooray we can just continue what we were doing. Let‘s burn more oil! Let‘s build bigger

Guess what happens if they decide to build that fleet of space bubbles: Hooray we can just continue what we were doing. Let‘s burn more oil! Let‘s build bigger cars! Party!

ncmncm 4y ago
Yes. Even imagining it would work brings disaster closer.
dorgo 4y ago
Global warming is the primary, if not the only, reason for an expensive transition to renewables. If global warming is stopped/reversed then there is no reason to not to burn more oil, is there? I don't like it, but I won't argue against fossil fuels with abstract moral reasons.
- civilized 4y ago
  There are plenty of other reasons to get off fossil fuels. Burning them is bad for human health, they cause economic and geopolitical instability, supplies are finite, they cause ocean acidity that destroys ocean ecosystems, excess CO2 causes less nutritious plants, etc. And renewables provide huge opportunities. Do you have any idea what it unlocks if you have unlimited clean energy? You could have massive, vibrant, beautiful cities and agriculture in the middle of the Sahara, and that's just the beginning.
  - jerojero 4y ago
    Moving to electric cars also hurts the environment a lot, maybe not in the countries that buy the cars but in the countries where the materials are mined. In reality we need structural policies that countries that spearhead pollution (like the USA) will never adopt. America is a car-centric country it is designed that way. Not only that but people expect their deliveries fast and also to be able to get what they want at all times... its a massive cultural shift. It seems very difficult to stop climate change, i would say impossible, because socially, politically and economically we have built machine that cant be stopped anymore.
    - civilized 4y ago
      The universe isn't a morality play where we are damned because of our bad behavior. We have options. We should use science and reason to decide what to do.
      - cmarschner 4y ago
        I‘m not sure what you are eluding to. Are you saying it is ok to exploit finite resources? That‘s also a morality play. Is it ok to live at the expense of future generations? I think we should finally start minimizing these external costs. We have the duty to do so.
        AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
    - worik 4y ago
      > Moving to electric cars also hurts the environment a lot, maybe not in the countries that buy the cars but in the countries where the materials are mined. Well mines are not pretty. I have gold and coal mines not far from here, and they are ugly. Go to Biafra and see what the oil industries look like to those places. AN oil spill in an estuary makes a mine look like a park. > It seems very difficult to stop climate change, i would say impossible, because socially, politically and economically we have built machine that cant be stopped anymore. Either we stop it, derail it, or burn it down completely. Or we all burn, and it will be worse.
lukeplato 4y ago
Or we develop a way to regulate incoming sunlight while continuing the (slow) migration off fossil fuels and developing better carbon capture tech
civilized 4y ago
Cynicism feels wise but sometimes it isn't.
theptip 4y ago
I always find this viewpoint perplexing. Isn’t continuing to do the things we want to do a good thing? These things are not bad in and of themselves, they are bad because of their externalities. If we can find a way to offset the negative effects of burning coal, that’s great; it means poor countries can spend more GDP on healthcare and education, and less on upgrading to clean power.
- jerojero 4y ago
  I think sometimes we get used to doing things a certain way and its difficult to change bad habits. Fossil fuels were never a good idea environmentally and even socially as it concentrated power massively... we just didnt know. You know how romans used to put lead in their drinks because they had become accustomed to the taste? I think our situation is similar. I think this is due for a much longer discussion but it seems really silly to think we simply ought to repair externalities when theres just so many of them. Poor countries should spend more in education for sure but, realistically, under our current economic and social systems: is it even desirable? I think the answer is no. Why would you want people who are mining cobalt, young men in many cases (an euphemism for kids) to be educated? Who would want do such an onerous task? If you give these people knowledge then how will that affect the price of these materials? I mean, as I said in another comment, the inertia of this machine is too much. But, yeah, ideally we could just get rid of externalities and I think in many ways we try to hide them... but it seems to me (and i live in a mining country) the externalities really are much more difficult to deal with than it might seem at first glance.
  - worik 4y ago
    > Poor countries should spend more in education for sure but, realistically, under our current economic and social systems: is it even desirable? I think the answer is no. How is it possible to have a rational debate in the sphere of morals when attitudes like this are not carefully hidden away because those that hold them are so ashamed. How can it be possible that this year a person here could advocate what is essentially enslaving whole communities to maintain the developed world's standard of living? The developed world can change life style voluntarily with massive disruption or change with catastrophic disruption. Trying to keep LDC's down will only make things worse in the future.

Guess what happens if they decide to build that fleet of space bubbles: Hooray we can just continue what we were doing. Let‘s burn more oil! Let‘s build bigger cars! Party!

ncmncm 4y ago

Yes. Even imagining it would work brings disaster closer.

dorgo 4y ago

Global warming is the primary, if not the only, reason for an expensive transition to renewables. If global warming is stopped/reversed then there is no reason to not to burn more oil, is there? I don't like it, but I won't argue against fossil fuels with abstract moral reasons.

civilized 4y ago
There are plenty of other reasons to get off fossil fuels. Burning them is bad for human health, they cause economic and geopolitical instability, supplies are finite, they cause ocean acidity that destroys ocean ecosystems, excess CO2 causes less nutritious plants, etc. And renewables provide huge opportunities. Do you have any idea what it unlocks if you have unlimited clean energy? You could have massive, vibrant, beautiful cities and agriculture in the middle of the Sahara, and that's just the beginning.
- jerojero 4y ago
  Moving to electric cars also hurts the environment a lot, maybe not in the countries that buy the cars but in the countries where the materials are mined. In reality we need structural policies that countries that spearhead pollution (like the USA) will never adopt. America is a car-centric country it is designed that way. Not only that but people expect their deliveries fast and also to be able to get what they want at all times... its a massive cultural shift. It seems very difficult to stop climate change, i would say impossible, because socially, politically and economically we have built machine that cant be stopped anymore.
  - civilized 4y ago
    The universe isn't a morality play where we are damned because of our bad behavior. We have options. We should use science and reason to decide what to do.
    - cmarschner 4y ago
      I‘m not sure what you are eluding to. Are you saying it is ok to exploit finite resources? That‘s also a morality play. Is it ok to live at the expense of future generations? I think we should finally start minimizing these external costs. We have the duty to do so.
      - AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
  - worik 4y ago
    > Moving to electric cars also hurts the environment a lot, maybe not in the countries that buy the cars but in the countries where the materials are mined. Well mines are not pretty. I have gold and coal mines not far from here, and they are ugly. Go to Biafra and see what the oil industries look like to those places. AN oil spill in an estuary makes a mine look like a park. > It seems very difficult to stop climate change, i would say impossible, because socially, politically and economically we have built machine that cant be stopped anymore. Either we stop it, derail it, or burn it down completely. Or we all burn, and it will be worse.

lukeplato 4y ago

Or we develop a way to regulate incoming sunlight while continuing the (slow) migration off fossil fuels and developing better carbon capture tech

civilized 4y ago

Cynicism feels wise but sometimes it isn't.

theptip 4y ago

I always find this viewpoint perplexing. Isn’t continuing to do the things we want to do a good thing? These things are not bad in and of themselves, they are bad because of their externalities. If we can find a way to offset the negative effects of burning coal, that’s great; it means poor countries can spend more GDP on healthcare and education, and less on upgrading to clean power.

jerojero 4y ago
I think sometimes we get used to doing things a certain way and its difficult to change bad habits. Fossil fuels were never a good idea environmentally and even socially as it concentrated power massively... we just didnt know. You know how romans used to put lead in their drinks because they had become accustomed to the taste? I think our situation is similar. I think this is due for a much longer discussion but it seems really silly to think we simply ought to repair externalities when theres just so many of them. Poor countries should spend more in education for sure but, realistically, under our current economic and social systems: is it even desirable? I think the answer is no. Why would you want people who are mining cobalt, young men in many cases (an euphemism for kids) to be educated? Who would want do such an onerous task? If you give these people knowledge then how will that affect the price of these materials? I mean, as I said in another comment, the inertia of this machine is too much. But, yeah, ideally we could just get rid of externalities and I think in many ways we try to hide them... but it seems to me (and i live in a mining country) the externalities really are much more difficult to deal with than it might seem at first glance.
- worik 4y ago
  > Poor countries should spend more in education for sure but, realistically, under our current economic and social systems: is it even desirable? I think the answer is no. How is it possible to have a rational debate in the sphere of morals when attitudes like this are not carefully hidden away because those that hold them are so ashamed. How can it be possible that this year a person here could advocate what is essentially enslaving whole communities to maintain the developed world's standard of living? The developed world can change life style voluntarily with massive disruption or change with catastrophic disruption. Trying to keep LDC's down will only make things worse in the future.