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> a dysfunctional company like this would go bankrupt in Europe Is that because of higher government overhead (taxes, regulations) or is it because of some oth

> a dysfunctional company like this would go bankrupt in Europe Is that because of higher government overhead (taxes, regulations) or is it because of some other reason? I doubt it's because of competition, because US companies compete in Europe just fine. > consider how many of your awesome HFT ventures actually produce anything of value instead of being parasitic and you’ll come to some good conclusions on why even some third world countries have a dramatically higher living and work standard Two things here: first, I could have mentioned any number of startups which are having real impacts on the world - not the Ubers and WeWorks but the Commonwealth Fusion and the Databricks types. It doesn't need to be HFT - my experience just comes from HFT (also, your European paradise also has HFTs - check out job postings in Amsterdam). Second, maybe by your definition of work standard (lower hours, lots of PTO), other countries have better work standards, but the US has by far the highest salaries for skilled workers. Healthcare costs are not even a consideration when your work pays for excellent insurance. And I would hazard a guess that US companies are closer to the leading edge of tech and therefore more fulfilling to work at. You certainly won't find the breadth of opportunities in Silicon Valley or NYC in any European city, not even London. Obviously if you are an unskilled worker, Europe is better, but if all the high paid skilled workers start leaving Europe (as they have been for the past 20 years) then you won't have a tax base to pay for the benefits of the unskilled workers. > but I would strongly disagree that their software is in any way exceptionally better than other software - unless we’re not talking about the same software that powers autopilot killing people left and right We are not talking about Autopilot but the rest of the car. Take a look at this WSJ article about VW's software development failures [1]. That's from 2021 by the way, very recent. Europeans treat software engineers like factory workers while Silicon Valley treats them like impact makers. That extends to pay, work routines, and everything else. You'd never see a picture like the one in the article where an executive in a suit is presenting to a bunch of other executives in a room. > Give it a few years and Tesla will be overtaken by a mile by even Ford and then another mile by VW and Hyundai. Ford, perhaps in trucks. VW and Hyundai, doubtful. If Toyota or Honda had competent EV programs then the conversation would be different. [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-volkswagens-50-billion-plan-to-beat-tesla-short-circuited-11611073974 https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-volkswagens-50-billion-plan...

Mo3 4y ago
> Is that because of higher government overhead (taxes, regulations) or is it because of some other reason? I doubt it's because of competition, because US companies compete in Europe just fine. I assume it's simply because we produce value with more efficiency and less initial funding. By the way, on the matter of personal taxes, US citizens are paying, if you take local, state, sales, etc tax and healthcare premiums into account, the same or in some cases even more taxes than Europeans do. They just get absolutely nil in return. This also extends to companies to some degree, vice versa. There is no real regulation that says you have to shut your unprofitable business down, but you're not going to be in business for very long if you have to treat your employees fairly, which is by regulation. > your European paradise also has HFTs - check out job postings in Amsterdam So.. this is pretty much what I'm on about. And I can guarantee you that they have dramatically less expense, overhead and a dramatically higher standard of work. > That's from 2021 by the way, very recent. Europeans treat software engineers like factory workers while Silicon Valley treats them like impact makers. The thing is, our "factory workers" are getting, BY DEFAULT, better benefits than even the most highly advanced Silicon Valley "impact makers". Even the fucking janitor gets by law almost a month of mandatory paid vacation, unlimited sick days, complete and utter unlimited job protection in addition to ±80% of his salary in the case of illness, forever, has to be paid, if not (likely) more, a living wage that is on average twice as high as the US minimum wage, has complete and utter protection if he turns out unemployed at some point and he will be taken care of at old age. He will also not be working more than 40 hours per week and especially not unpaid. THE JANITOR. Everyone. Yes, our wages for highly skilled workers are not as high as some insane 300k FAANG jobs, but I'd rather have it this way and the janitor happy as well. When you hear about “factory workers” here it is not what you think it is. > VW and Hyundai, doubtful. I cannot share much here due to my field of work, but I think you're going to be very surprised.
- ceeplusplus 4y ago
  > I assume it's simply because we produce value with more efficiency and less initial funding. But the data doesn't back that up. According to the EU, the US has 40% higher GDP per capita [1] compared to the EU. And that's according to the EU, which has to be the most biased source possible. > US citizens are paying, if you take local, state, sales, etc tax and healthcare premiums into account, the same or in some cases even more taxes than Europeans do That isn't true, at least for me and many other software engineers. Sales tax is definitely lower in the US because we don't have VAT - typical rates are 7-10% vs. 12-20% in EU. Income tax is also lower in the US. According to this calculator [2] I would pay about 10% lower income tax effective rate on my current income in the US vs. Berlin, Germany. My health insurance costs <$2000/year for a high tier plan so that cost is negligible. Payroll tax for companies is lower. Gas tax is lower, by a substantial margin. > So.. this is pretty much what I'm on about. And I can guarantee you that they have dramatically less expense, overhead and a dramatically higher standard of work. What's your point - that EU does have parasitic companies which produce no value or does not? You seem to be flip flopping. And I can tell you the only reason the EU has dramatically less expense is the workers make less. A lot less. I make double what my counterparts in the EU are making. They definitely don't have a higher standard of work either. > The thing is, our "factory workers" are getting, BY DEFAULT, better benefits than even the most highly advanced Silicon Valley "impact makers" Are they? Your factory workers get free breakfast, lunch, dinner, multi-thousand dollar offsites and dinners, and the ability to invest your salary in the (private) company? You consider things like guaranteed job protection as benefits, but I see them as lowering my pay and reducing the number of jobs available. There's a reason why European unemployment is 300 basis points higher than US and why far more startups are started in the US. Banning non-competes and at-will employment in California are the #1 reason why SWE wages are so high here. You may value work-life balance over pay, but that is a personal choice and not an objectively superior option. Some of us are willing to work hard to become wealthy, others are fine where they are. > a month of mandatory paid vacation That ends up reflecting in your pay (or lack thereof). The market rate for wages will be lower because the month of vacation will be priced in. > THE JANITOR. Everyone. The janitor's benefits are irrelevant. I already said unskilled workers do better in EU. Your original comment was about white collar workers in companies. That means skilled workers. And a skilled worker is going to have a way better life in the US. > Yes, our wages for highly skilled workers are not as high as some insane 300k FAANG jobs Not as high is one way of putting it. According to levels.fyi the gap is 2-3x for a senior SWE in most FAANG or FAANG adjacent companies. > I'd rather have it this way and the janitor happy as well. And you are entitled to have that opinion, but you shouldn't go around claiming that US companies are "extremely inefficient" or that the environment is "hostile towards efficiency and creativity". [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/portlet_file_entry/2995521/2-19052020-BP-EN.pdf/bb14f7f9-fc26-8aa1-60d4-7c2b509dda8e https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/portlet_file_entry/2... [2] https://www.arbeitnow.com/tools/salary-calculator/germany https://www.arbeitnow.com/tools/salary-calculator/germany

Mo3 4y ago

> Is that because of higher government overhead (taxes, regulations) or is it because of some other reason? I doubt it's because of competition, because US companies compete in Europe just fine. I assume it's simply because we produce value with more efficiency and less initial funding. By the way, on the matter of personal taxes, US citizens are paying, if you take local, state, sales, etc tax and healthcare premiums into account, the same or in some cases even more taxes than Europeans do. They just get absolutely nil in return. This also extends to companies to some degree, vice versa. There is no real regulation that says you have to shut your unprofitable business down, but you're not going to be in business for very long if you have to treat your employees fairly, which is by regulation. > your European paradise also has HFTs - check out job postings in Amsterdam So.. this is pretty much what I'm on about. And I can guarantee you that they have dramatically less expense, overhead and a dramatically higher standard of work. > That's from 2021 by the way, very recent. Europeans treat software engineers like factory workers while Silicon Valley treats them like impact makers. The thing is, our "factory workers" are getting, BY DEFAULT, better benefits than even the most highly advanced Silicon Valley "impact makers". Even the fucking janitor gets by law almost a month of mandatory paid vacation, unlimited sick days, complete and utter unlimited job protection in addition to ±80% of his salary in the case of illness, forever, has to be paid, if not (likely) more, a living wage that is on average twice as high as the US minimum wage, has complete and utter protection if he turns out unemployed at some point and he will be taken care of at old age. He will also not be working more than 40 hours per week and especially not unpaid. THE JANITOR. Everyone. Yes, our wages for highly skilled workers are not as high as some insane 300k FAANG jobs, but I'd rather have it this way and the janitor happy as well. When you hear about “factory workers” here it is not what you think it is. > VW and Hyundai, doubtful. I cannot share much here due to my field of work, but I think you're going to be very surprised.

ceeplusplus 4y ago
> I assume it's simply because we produce value with more efficiency and less initial funding. But the data doesn't back that up. According to the EU, the US has 40% higher GDP per capita [1] compared to the EU. And that's according to the EU, which has to be the most biased source possible. > US citizens are paying, if you take local, state, sales, etc tax and healthcare premiums into account, the same or in some cases even more taxes than Europeans do That isn't true, at least for me and many other software engineers. Sales tax is definitely lower in the US because we don't have VAT - typical rates are 7-10% vs. 12-20% in EU. Income tax is also lower in the US. According to this calculator [2] I would pay about 10% lower income tax effective rate on my current income in the US vs. Berlin, Germany. My health insurance costs <$2000/year for a high tier plan so that cost is negligible. Payroll tax for companies is lower. Gas tax is lower, by a substantial margin. > So.. this is pretty much what I'm on about. And I can guarantee you that they have dramatically less expense, overhead and a dramatically higher standard of work. What's your point - that EU does have parasitic companies which produce no value or does not? You seem to be flip flopping. And I can tell you the only reason the EU has dramatically less expense is the workers make less. A lot less. I make double what my counterparts in the EU are making. They definitely don't have a higher standard of work either. > The thing is, our "factory workers" are getting, BY DEFAULT, better benefits than even the most highly advanced Silicon Valley "impact makers" Are they? Your factory workers get free breakfast, lunch, dinner, multi-thousand dollar offsites and dinners, and the ability to invest your salary in the (private) company? You consider things like guaranteed job protection as benefits, but I see them as lowering my pay and reducing the number of jobs available. There's a reason why European unemployment is 300 basis points higher than US and why far more startups are started in the US. Banning non-competes and at-will employment in California are the #1 reason why SWE wages are so high here. You may value work-life balance over pay, but that is a personal choice and not an objectively superior option. Some of us are willing to work hard to become wealthy, others are fine where they are. > a month of mandatory paid vacation That ends up reflecting in your pay (or lack thereof). The market rate for wages will be lower because the month of vacation will be priced in. > THE JANITOR. Everyone. The janitor's benefits are irrelevant. I already said unskilled workers do better in EU. Your original comment was about white collar workers in companies. That means skilled workers. And a skilled worker is going to have a way better life in the US. > Yes, our wages for highly skilled workers are not as high as some insane 300k FAANG jobs Not as high is one way of putting it. According to levels.fyi the gap is 2-3x for a senior SWE in most FAANG or FAANG adjacent companies. > I'd rather have it this way and the janitor happy as well. And you are entitled to have that opinion, but you shouldn't go around claiming that US companies are "extremely inefficient" or that the environment is "hostile towards efficiency and creativity". [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/portlet_file_entry/2995521/2-19052020-BP-EN.pdf/bb14f7f9-fc26-8aa1-60d4-7c2b509dda8e https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/portlet_file_entry/2... [2] https://www.arbeitnow.com/tools/salary-calculator/germany https://www.arbeitnow.com/tools/salary-calculator/germany