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> We have a ton of dead humans in the ocean, it isn't considered a national embarrassment, I don't think. Accidents are sad, but their inevitability is somethin

> We have a ton of dead humans in the ocean, it isn't considered a national embarrassment, I don't think. Accidents are sad, but their inevitability is something that everyone understands. In practice, on the moon or Mars, the dead bodies would just pile up. And otherwise there would be a lot of them in long lasting orbits. Here on earth, we don't have that problem. E.g., using side scan sonar, we just found a US destroyer 3+ miles down, in two pieces, sunk by a shot from the battleship Yamato in one of the WWII battles in the Philippine Sea. We are not bothered by the pile up of the bodies of the dead US sailors. The bodies decompose and don't pile up, and in the case of the ocean are miles deep where it is pitch black, just above freezing, with not much in life. In my original post, I didn't object to the deaths. Instead I objected to the accumulation of dead bodies that will last for thousands of years. There is no reasonably feasible way for humans to colonize either the moon or Mars. Big problems include the medical effects of high energy cosmic rays and the low gravity. Other dangers stand to be the highly foreign, restrictive, threatening, and hostile environments, even nearly the best environments we could hope to create. Even if we could get some plants to be healthy on the moon or Mars, we can't get humans healthy there. No practical way. So, we will get piles of dead bodies, and all for nothing -- the moon and Mars are so hostile to humans that there is no way humans could be at all productive on either. Robots? Fine. Humans? No reasonably feasible way, and with a result of piles of dead bodies. Sorry 'bout that. It's not at all complicated.

yellowapple 4y ago
> and in the case of the ocean are miles deep where it is pitch black, just above freezing, with not much in life. That's even more true about space. If you're fine with bodies in the ocean, then you should be even more fine with bodies in the literal infinity that is outer space. (And no, bodies on the ocean floor don't decompose, at least not fully; the cold suppresses a lot of the decomposition processes, and the deeper you go, the fewer the scavengers to pick meat off your bones - bones which themselves have a tendency to stick around for a very long time.)
- graycat 4y ago
  > If you're fine with bodies in the ocean, then you should be even more fine with bodies in the literal infinity that is outer space. Yes, space is for us nearly infinity, but getting very far takes a lot of energy. So, the dead bodies will nearly always be in some orbit around the moon, earth, Mars, the sun, etc., frozen, and so expensive to retrieve that they will be there for 1000+ years and, thus, an embarrassment. Last I heard, a dead whale, several miles down, gets eaten back to just the bones by some specialized worms fairly quickly. But it's several miles down. On the moon or Mars, there will be a pile of frozen dead bodies right there, fully visible. Such a pile of frozen dead bodies, I don't think that will be acceptable ethically, politically, emotionally, etc. In a word, it will be embarrassing. The media will have a lot of headlines -- add up all the money, the huge pile of money, and claim that about all we got was a pile of frozen dead bodies, as proof of our folly, that will be there for 1000+ years.
  - yellowapple 4y ago
    > Yes, space is for us nearly infinity, but getting very far takes a lot of energy. It takes a lot less once you're in orbit, and... > But it's several miles down. There are many thousands or even millions of miles to cover in order to encounter a body in even Earth's orbit, let alone every other body we might explore. > On the moon or Mars, there will be a pile of frozen dead bodies right there, fully visible. Have you seriously never heard of cremation? Or burial?
    - graycat 4y ago
      Cremation, burial, they sound like you are assuming some colonization. Well, there won't be any colonization -- humans just can't hope to be in space very long without serious harm from low gravity and high energy cosmic rays. You just are nearly totally missing just how hostile space is for humans. F'get the science fiction movies and TV shows, all of StarTrek, all of Star Wars, all of Armageddon, etc. and just look at the simple facts, e.g., low gravity, cosmic rays, the distances and energies involved, the lack of resources, etc. Again, people on the moon or Mars will be in dangerous situations, and there will be a relatively high death rate. Due to the cold, the bodies will quickly freeze. Then in practice, due to the high cost in energy from any alternative, the frozen, dead bodies will be just piled up. There won't be any burials or cremations -- any such implies WAY more in colonization than is at all feasible in practice within the currently visible horizon. All those artists' sketches of domes of settlements on the moon or Mars are just absurd, for now unscientific nonsense. In fact, now, for a human, any significant time on the moon or Mars or out in space is a death sentence from the medical problems caused by the time in low gravity and exposed to high energy cosmic rays. You seem to be having a just super hard time appreciating these simple, real facts and situations. Beyond the horizon, assume some new sources of gravity, faster than light travel, warp drives, new sources of energy, etc., and maybe okay, but for now all that is not at all about reality but only fantasy. Since there won't be any colonization and since the humans won't be very productive, the projects of the moon or Mars bases will be over quickly, and then the observation will be that a huge pile of money killed some people and created some plainly visible on the surfaces piles of frozen dead bodies, and little of any value. So, the whole effort of humans on the moon or Mars will be seen as just piles of frozen dead bodies as evidence of human folly and will be offensive ethically, morally, politically, etc. and, thus, embarrassing, as I first stated. Solution: As in the current Mars robots, have some clear scientific objectives, develop some good instruments, and fire the rockets. Develop the robots along with the instruments so that it will be easy for the robots to work with the instruments. If we can have self-driving cars on some city streets, then we should be able to develop some robots effective in space. How would that work? From earth, send some orders for some work we know the robots are able to do. Then the robot executes as ordered, keeps records, and, within a few hours, sends back the records. Net, for now and all the way to as far as we can see to a horizon, there is just no significant role for humans in space. Robots? Yes. Humans? No. In simple, blunt terms, for any human to attempt to do anything significantly productive in space is, from the medical effects of low gravity and cosmic rays, just a death sentence. Sorry 'bout that. I'm surprised the HN audience won't jump on the opportunity to have a big push in the associated robotics, automation, artificial intelligence, etc.

yellowapple 4y ago

> and in the case of the ocean are miles deep where it is pitch black, just above freezing, with not much in life. That's even more true about space. If you're fine with bodies in the ocean, then you should be even more fine with bodies in the literal infinity that is outer space. (And no, bodies on the ocean floor don't decompose, at least not fully; the cold suppresses a lot of the decomposition processes, and the deeper you go, the fewer the scavengers to pick meat off your bones - bones which themselves have a tendency to stick around for a very long time.)

graycat 4y ago
> If you're fine with bodies in the ocean, then you should be even more fine with bodies in the literal infinity that is outer space. Yes, space is for us nearly infinity, but getting very far takes a lot of energy. So, the dead bodies will nearly always be in some orbit around the moon, earth, Mars, the sun, etc., frozen, and so expensive to retrieve that they will be there for 1000+ years and, thus, an embarrassment. Last I heard, a dead whale, several miles down, gets eaten back to just the bones by some specialized worms fairly quickly. But it's several miles down. On the moon or Mars, there will be a pile of frozen dead bodies right there, fully visible. Such a pile of frozen dead bodies, I don't think that will be acceptable ethically, politically, emotionally, etc. In a word, it will be embarrassing. The media will have a lot of headlines -- add up all the money, the huge pile of money, and claim that about all we got was a pile of frozen dead bodies, as proof of our folly, that will be there for 1000+ years.
- yellowapple 4y ago
  > Yes, space is for us nearly infinity, but getting very far takes a lot of energy. It takes a lot less once you're in orbit, and... > But it's several miles down. There are many thousands or even millions of miles to cover in order to encounter a body in even Earth's orbit, let alone every other body we might explore. > On the moon or Mars, there will be a pile of frozen dead bodies right there, fully visible. Have you seriously never heard of cremation? Or burial?
  - graycat 4y ago
    Cremation, burial, they sound like you are assuming some colonization. Well, there won't be any colonization -- humans just can't hope to be in space very long without serious harm from low gravity and high energy cosmic rays. You just are nearly totally missing just how hostile space is for humans. F'get the science fiction movies and TV shows, all of StarTrek, all of Star Wars, all of Armageddon, etc. and just look at the simple facts, e.g., low gravity, cosmic rays, the distances and energies involved, the lack of resources, etc. Again, people on the moon or Mars will be in dangerous situations, and there will be a relatively high death rate. Due to the cold, the bodies will quickly freeze. Then in practice, due to the high cost in energy from any alternative, the frozen, dead bodies will be just piled up. There won't be any burials or cremations -- any such implies WAY more in colonization than is at all feasible in practice within the currently visible horizon. All those artists' sketches of domes of settlements on the moon or Mars are just absurd, for now unscientific nonsense. In fact, now, for a human, any significant time on the moon or Mars or out in space is a death sentence from the medical problems caused by the time in low gravity and exposed to high energy cosmic rays. You seem to be having a just super hard time appreciating these simple, real facts and situations. Beyond the horizon, assume some new sources of gravity, faster than light travel, warp drives, new sources of energy, etc., and maybe okay, but for now all that is not at all about reality but only fantasy. Since there won't be any colonization and since the humans won't be very productive, the projects of the moon or Mars bases will be over quickly, and then the observation will be that a huge pile of money killed some people and created some plainly visible on the surfaces piles of frozen dead bodies, and little of any value. So, the whole effort of humans on the moon or Mars will be seen as just piles of frozen dead bodies as evidence of human folly and will be offensive ethically, morally, politically, etc. and, thus, embarrassing, as I first stated. Solution: As in the current Mars robots, have some clear scientific objectives, develop some good instruments, and fire the rockets. Develop the robots along with the instruments so that it will be easy for the robots to work with the instruments. If we can have self-driving cars on some city streets, then we should be able to develop some robots effective in space. How would that work? From earth, send some orders for some work we know the robots are able to do. Then the robot executes as ordered, keeps records, and, within a few hours, sends back the records. Net, for now and all the way to as far as we can see to a horizon, there is just no significant role for humans in space. Robots? Yes. Humans? No. In simple, blunt terms, for any human to attempt to do anything significantly productive in space is, from the medical effects of low gravity and cosmic rays, just a death sentence. Sorry 'bout that. I'm surprised the HN audience won't jump on the opportunity to have a big push in the associated robotics, automation, artificial intelligence, etc.