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The point is the promised us something else. Many (of the interested) people in the EU are unhappy about some democratic shortcomings of the EU. The only direc

The point is the promised us something else. Many (of the interested) people in the EU are unhappy about some democratic shortcomings of the EU. The only directly elected body is the parliament and it is not very powerful. There is too little power at directly elected bodies and too much power at elements, that are far from the voters reach. At the last election they wanted to address that and promised that the lead candidate of the party with the most votes will be the commissioner. That didn't happen. Instead we got vdL, who was in trouble as Minister of Defense in Germany for some hiring consultants without proper process and for ... deleting messages from her phone. The whole situation is extremely painful for people like me, who support the EU. The tone-deafness, the disrespect for the voter. It is painful.

varispeed 4y ago
This is exactly the issue why many people voted for Brexit. There was a feeling of disconnect between the people and the power. Now it may seem like a complete disaster, but we feel that our vote matters more now. It's a shame the EU has not addressed this and they don't seem to be doing it anytime soon. The most painful side effect of this is increasing corruption and lack of sense of responsibility among politicians. They feel like they can do whatever they want and there is extremely slim chance they get booted out or investigated.
- cinntaile 4y ago
  Let's be real here... The reason why most people voted was because they didn't want the influx of (EU)-immigrants that they couldn't decide over. That and the idea that they would have a lot more control after brexit while in reality the world is more complicated than that. E.g. they lose negotiation power in important trade deals because nowadays Britain is just a tiny island with little to say. A lot of other laws are influenced by international treaties between bigger economical powers as well.
  - scarygliders 4y ago
    > Let's be real here... The reason why most people voted was because they didn't want the influx of (EU)-immigrants that they couldn't decide over. Yeah no, that's 100% inaccurate, which a study you can read at : http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153 http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153 will show... Quote:... What reasons do people give to justify their vote choice for Leave or Remain? And, what are the reasons they think the other side voted as they did? New briefing note CSI Brexit 4: People’s Stated Reasons for Voting Leave or Remain. Summary of the findings: Several different surveys and opinion polls have asked Britons why they voted the way they did in the EU referendum. The two main reasons people voted Leave were ‘immigration’ and ‘sovereignty’, whereas the main reason people voted Remain was ‘the economy’. Analysis of data from the Centre for Social Investigation’s longitudinal survey on attitudes to Brexit bolsters these conclusions. Among four possible reasons for voting Leave, ‘to teach British politicians a lesson’ is ranked last by an overwhelming majority of Leave voters, contrary to the claim that Brexit was a ‘protest vote’. Among four possible reasons for voting Remain, ‘a strong attachment to Europe’ is ranked last by a sizable majority of Remain voters, consistent with the claim that Britons have a relatively weak sense of European identity. When asked to rank the reasons why their counterparts voted the way they did, Leave voters characterise Remain voters more accurately than Remain voters characterise Leave voters. In particular, Remain voters underestimate the importance that Leave voters attach to the EU having no role in UK law-making. ---end quote. As for losing negotiation power, since Brexit the UK has negotiated multiple Billions of GBP worth of trade deals around the world. The OECD and the IMF are forecasting that the UK economy will be above the Eurozone economy. (https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02...) How's that for a tiny island.
    - notahacker 4y ago
      I'm not sure that posting research showing that Leave voters' highest priority was immigration and their lowest priority by some distance was teaching politicians a lesson is the best way to rebut the GP's claim that immigration was much more important than a sense that politicians felt they could do what they wanted...
    - cinntaile 4y ago
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Virtually nobody cares about trade deals. They care about how much the people that govern them reflect their own values and concerns. India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan probably would have benefitted economically from being one country with one common market. But nobody wants that because Indians don’t want to be governed by Pakistanis and vice versa. Trade is a red herring.
    - account42 4y ago
      > Virtually nobody cares about trade deals. I care about trade deals because trade deals are how many bad laws like the ever-expanding copyright are spread around the world.
  - Drblessing 4y ago
    The UK has the 6th largest economy in the world. [1] [1] https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-by-country/ https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-by-country/
- gjm11 4y ago
  > but we feel that our vote matters more now. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but: I am in the UK, and I absolutely 100% do not feel that any vote of mine matters more now that we have left the EU. (And, also, there are votes I no longer get to cast -- e.g., those for members of the European Parliament.)
- notahacker 4y ago
  How's the decreasing corruption and newfound sense of responsibility working out for UK politicians?
- rayiner 4y ago
  Note that the US has a specific mechanism to address this disconnect. Anyone who exercises any real power and discretion in the executive branch must be appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. The executive bureaucracy may be sprawling, but you can lay the blame for any significant policy failing directly on someone you voted for (or against).
  - Gwypaas 4y ago
    Which is about the equal to the EU. Council of the EU [1] has similar function as the senate in the US. The council is made up of the heads of governments, as elected, by the member countries. The council proposes the commission, which is then left for the EU parliament to confirm. This very close, pretty much about equal to the election process of the US senate before the 17th amendment in 1912.[2] The difference being no popular vote for the president. As is the case for the "head of state" for pretty much all European countries. Exceptions are only France? The major difference is that only the commission has the right to legislative initiative. To balance this the EU parliament can dissolve the commission based on a vote of no confidence. So all in all, it's a truly democratic system with all the checks and balances. The major difference is the lack of cross European parties, thus your choice becomes collected together in the same basket as what your chosen party thinks is the right path. Completely through representative democracy, either from the head of government or European parliament. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeenth_Amendment_to_the_U... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Dismissal [4]: Kurzgesagt - Is the EU Democratic? Does Your Vote Matter? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Uu5eyN6VU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Uu5eyN6VU
    - xyzzyz 4y ago
      Not many Americans realize that the original vision and the implementation of the political organization of the United Stated was very resembling that of European Union. The US states were just a bit less sovereign than EU member states (with differences mostly about having independent militaries and foreign relations), and the role of the federal US government was closer to what role EU plays for its member states. Then, suddenly, in early 20th century, the federal US government made a huge power grab, and now the states are mostly just subjects of it, with much less sovereignty remaining. That’s what some EU skeptics are concerned about as well: sudden sweep and becoming subjects of Brussels.
- thow-58d4e8b 4y ago
  While that was a rhetorical point in the Brexit campaign, in reality the nameless unelected bureaucrats in Brussels were simply replaced by nameless unelected bureaucrats in London Every Western "democracy" suffers from the same fundamental problem - entrenched deep state, and a lack of feedback loop towards it. It's extremely hazy where, how and by whom decisions are truly made, and as a consequence, nobody ever faces any consequences if those decisions flop. People like Biden, Harris, Johnson or Truss are so glaringly incompetent that nobody even suspects them to have any input into the decision process, they're simple announcers. Elections allow us to change the announcers, but change nothing about the deep state that ultimately dictates the policies. Brussels works the same way, it's just makes the fundamental problem more obvious
  - thenaturalist 4y ago
    Your statement strikes me as too generalizing and overly simplistic and the conclusion that basically the entire circus of Western democratic parties and elections is meaningless and we're all ruled by an anonymous, malicious class of fellow citizens that somehow want only the worst for us and we're gonna label them the "deep state" is as absurd as it is unnecessarily threatening the freedom we all cherish. Two or even several things can be true at the same time. Yes, some decision making transcends legistlative periods of elected officials. Other decisions are actively brought in and executed. Yes, there is a lack of feedback loop. Sometimes there are public compliance investigations after the fact. Yes, some politicians are incompetent and have risen due to other qualifications, be it greed, be it communication. Some politicians may just not show their qualifications in the few moments when all the spotlight is on them. Democracies are imperfect exactly not because there is a centralized hidden agenda going on but because people like you and I with emotions and ego participate in every step of the process. Yes democracies are painfully slow to respond to change, don't catch all malicious actors in its executive branch and live with an oversized public servant body most of the time, but so help me any spiritual being you might know or believe in I'd choose to live in one any day of the week over autocracies where everything is nicely simple and announced by one, all competent super hero. I'd recommend watching an annual People Congress of the CCP or how Putler auditions his inner circle and scolds them like school boys and then let's have a talk about the deep state.
- phatfish 4y ago
  Most people voted for Brexit to stop immigrants "taking their jobs", and to try and piss off useless UK politicians. They might tell themselves after the fact it was for some other reason now they realise what they have done. I've never heard anyone say they think their vote "matters more" because of Brexit. Aside from the fact it is patently untrue (we still use the least democratic and most divisive method, FPTP) the EU Parliament elections are actually more democratic by virtue using PR, which allowed UKIP to send a load of MEPs to Brussels. More than a smaller party could ever get into Westminster even if they had a similar proportion of support due to our broken democracy.
  - davidhbolton 4y ago
    Nope. Most people voted for Brexit because we wanted our sovereignty back. We welcome legal immigrants and 6 million or EU immigrants so have chosen to stay here after Brexit. We don't welcome illegal immigrants. While in the EU we had to take EU immigrants over non-EU which was hardly fair. Now both EU and non-EU immigrants are treated the same.
    - cinntaile 4y ago
      I don't get what you mean when you say you had to take EU immigrants over non-EU immigrants. No such policy exists afaik. There are (different) rules for both cases and if the rules are fulfilled, you're free to enter.
r12343a_19 4y ago
Covid killed democracy.
- _heimdall 4y ago
  If you ask Biden, democracy killes Covid. The one year anniversary of our Covid Independence is coming up soon!

varispeed 4y ago

This is exactly the issue why many people voted for Brexit. There was a feeling of disconnect between the people and the power. Now it may seem like a complete disaster, but we feel that our vote matters more now. It's a shame the EU has not addressed this and they don't seem to be doing it anytime soon. The most painful side effect of this is increasing corruption and lack of sense of responsibility among politicians. They feel like they can do whatever they want and there is extremely slim chance they get booted out or investigated.

cinntaile 4y ago
Let's be real here... The reason why most people voted was because they didn't want the influx of (EU)-immigrants that they couldn't decide over. That and the idea that they would have a lot more control after brexit while in reality the world is more complicated than that. E.g. they lose negotiation power in important trade deals because nowadays Britain is just a tiny island with little to say. A lot of other laws are influenced by international treaties between bigger economical powers as well.
- scarygliders 4y ago
  > Let's be real here... The reason why most people voted was because they didn't want the influx of (EU)-immigrants that they couldn't decide over. Yeah no, that's 100% inaccurate, which a study you can read at : http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153 http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/?p=1153 will show... Quote:... What reasons do people give to justify their vote choice for Leave or Remain? And, what are the reasons they think the other side voted as they did? New briefing note CSI Brexit 4: People’s Stated Reasons for Voting Leave or Remain. Summary of the findings: Several different surveys and opinion polls have asked Britons why they voted the way they did in the EU referendum. The two main reasons people voted Leave were ‘immigration’ and ‘sovereignty’, whereas the main reason people voted Remain was ‘the economy’. Analysis of data from the Centre for Social Investigation’s longitudinal survey on attitudes to Brexit bolsters these conclusions. Among four possible reasons for voting Leave, ‘to teach British politicians a lesson’ is ranked last by an overwhelming majority of Leave voters, contrary to the claim that Brexit was a ‘protest vote’. Among four possible reasons for voting Remain, ‘a strong attachment to Europe’ is ranked last by a sizable majority of Remain voters, consistent with the claim that Britons have a relatively weak sense of European identity. When asked to rank the reasons why their counterparts voted the way they did, Leave voters characterise Remain voters more accurately than Remain voters characterise Leave voters. In particular, Remain voters underestimate the importance that Leave voters attach to the EU having no role in UK law-making. ---end quote. As for losing negotiation power, since Brexit the UK has negotiated multiple Billions of GBP worth of trade deals around the world. The OECD and the IMF are forecasting that the UK economy will be above the Eurozone economy. (https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02...) How's that for a tiny island.
  - notahacker 4y ago
    I'm not sure that posting research showing that Leave voters' highest priority was immigration and their lowest priority by some distance was teaching politicians a lesson is the best way to rebut the GP's claim that immigration was much more important than a sense that politicians felt they could do what they wanted...
  - cinntaile 4y ago
- rayiner 4y ago
  Virtually nobody cares about trade deals. They care about how much the people that govern them reflect their own values and concerns. India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan probably would have benefitted economically from being one country with one common market. But nobody wants that because Indians don’t want to be governed by Pakistanis and vice versa. Trade is a red herring.
  - account42 4y ago
    > Virtually nobody cares about trade deals. I care about trade deals because trade deals are how many bad laws like the ever-expanding copyright are spread around the world.
- Drblessing 4y ago
  The UK has the 6th largest economy in the world. [1] [1] https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-by-country/ https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-by-country/
gjm11 4y ago
> but we feel that our vote matters more now. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but: I am in the UK, and I absolutely 100% do not feel that any vote of mine matters more now that we have left the EU. (And, also, there are votes I no longer get to cast -- e.g., those for members of the European Parliament.)
notahacker 4y ago
How's the decreasing corruption and newfound sense of responsibility working out for UK politicians?
rayiner 4y ago
Note that the US has a specific mechanism to address this disconnect. Anyone who exercises any real power and discretion in the executive branch must be appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. The executive bureaucracy may be sprawling, but you can lay the blame for any significant policy failing directly on someone you voted for (or against).
- Gwypaas 4y ago
  Which is about the equal to the EU. Council of the EU [1] has similar function as the senate in the US. The council is made up of the heads of governments, as elected, by the member countries. The council proposes the commission, which is then left for the EU parliament to confirm. This very close, pretty much about equal to the election process of the US senate before the 17th amendment in 1912.[2] The difference being no popular vote for the president. As is the case for the "head of state" for pretty much all European countries. Exceptions are only France? The major difference is that only the commission has the right to legislative initiative. To balance this the EU parliament can dissolve the commission based on a vote of no confidence. So all in all, it's a truly democratic system with all the checks and balances. The major difference is the lack of cross European parties, thus your choice becomes collected together in the same basket as what your chosen party thinks is the right path. Completely through representative democracy, either from the head of government or European parliament. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeenth_Amendment_to_the_U... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Dismissal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Dismissal [4]: Kurzgesagt - Is the EU Democratic? Does Your Vote Matter? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Uu5eyN6VU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Uu5eyN6VU
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    Not many Americans realize that the original vision and the implementation of the political organization of the United Stated was very resembling that of European Union. The US states were just a bit less sovereign than EU member states (with differences mostly about having independent militaries and foreign relations), and the role of the federal US government was closer to what role EU plays for its member states. Then, suddenly, in early 20th century, the federal US government made a huge power grab, and now the states are mostly just subjects of it, with much less sovereignty remaining. That’s what some EU skeptics are concerned about as well: sudden sweep and becoming subjects of Brussels.
thow-58d4e8b 4y ago
While that was a rhetorical point in the Brexit campaign, in reality the nameless unelected bureaucrats in Brussels were simply replaced by nameless unelected bureaucrats in London Every Western "democracy" suffers from the same fundamental problem - entrenched deep state, and a lack of feedback loop towards it. It's extremely hazy where, how and by whom decisions are truly made, and as a consequence, nobody ever faces any consequences if those decisions flop. People like Biden, Harris, Johnson or Truss are so glaringly incompetent that nobody even suspects them to have any input into the decision process, they're simple announcers. Elections allow us to change the announcers, but change nothing about the deep state that ultimately dictates the policies. Brussels works the same way, it's just makes the fundamental problem more obvious
- thenaturalist 4y ago
  Your statement strikes me as too generalizing and overly simplistic and the conclusion that basically the entire circus of Western democratic parties and elections is meaningless and we're all ruled by an anonymous, malicious class of fellow citizens that somehow want only the worst for us and we're gonna label them the "deep state" is as absurd as it is unnecessarily threatening the freedom we all cherish. Two or even several things can be true at the same time. Yes, some decision making transcends legistlative periods of elected officials. Other decisions are actively brought in and executed. Yes, there is a lack of feedback loop. Sometimes there are public compliance investigations after the fact. Yes, some politicians are incompetent and have risen due to other qualifications, be it greed, be it communication. Some politicians may just not show their qualifications in the few moments when all the spotlight is on them. Democracies are imperfect exactly not because there is a centralized hidden agenda going on but because people like you and I with emotions and ego participate in every step of the process. Yes democracies are painfully slow to respond to change, don't catch all malicious actors in its executive branch and live with an oversized public servant body most of the time, but so help me any spiritual being you might know or believe in I'd choose to live in one any day of the week over autocracies where everything is nicely simple and announced by one, all competent super hero. I'd recommend watching an annual People Congress of the CCP or how Putler auditions his inner circle and scolds them like school boys and then let's have a talk about the deep state.
phatfish 4y ago
Most people voted for Brexit to stop immigrants "taking their jobs", and to try and piss off useless UK politicians. They might tell themselves after the fact it was for some other reason now they realise what they have done. I've never heard anyone say they think their vote "matters more" because of Brexit. Aside from the fact it is patently untrue (we still use the least democratic and most divisive method, FPTP) the EU Parliament elections are actually more democratic by virtue using PR, which allowed UKIP to send a load of MEPs to Brussels. More than a smaller party could ever get into Westminster even if they had a similar proportion of support due to our broken democracy.
- davidhbolton 4y ago
  Nope. Most people voted for Brexit because we wanted our sovereignty back. We welcome legal immigrants and 6 million or EU immigrants so have chosen to stay here after Brexit. We don't welcome illegal immigrants. While in the EU we had to take EU immigrants over non-EU which was hardly fair. Now both EU and non-EU immigrants are treated the same.
  - cinntaile 4y ago
    I don't get what you mean when you say you had to take EU immigrants over non-EU immigrants. No such policy exists afaik. There are (different) rules for both cases and if the rules are fulfilled, you're free to enter.

r12343a_19 4y ago

Covid killed democracy.

_heimdall 4y ago
If you ask Biden, democracy killes Covid. The one year anniversary of our Covid Independence is coming up soon!