4 ms·
Once in grad school I went to a talk where another grad student was presenting on his fear research with mice. Many powerpoint details unfold of the hell he an
by shanusmagnus 4y ago
Once in grad school I went to a talk where another grad student was presenting on his fear research with mice. Many powerpoint details unfold of the hell he and his advisor had contrived to make the mice chronically afraid, and to be able to quantify the fear induced and its effects. I learned that when mice get scared enough they shit excessively. In the presentation of results he lingers on a graph, and says, for effect: "That's right, they were scared shitless."
Hilarity. The room bubbles with laughter. Just enough transgression.
I remember in that moment bubbling with rage. A famous and well-regarded paragon of the field [1] who had recently come to the university to give a talk spent his career characterizing animal emotions, especially of mice and rats. He revealed their rich emotional worlds in glorious detail. The presentor, his advisor, many of us in the department knew -- or should have -- how un-funny the joke was. We were perfectly positioned to know it.
Despite knowing what I knew, I didn't say anything. That silence is still among the top few of my regrets. I guess I learned the weight of doing the right thing in a packed room full of people with contrary opinions, and learned that I was way less strong / bold / principled than I had believed myself to be; which was remarkable, as that bar was already low.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaak_Panksepp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaak_Panksepp
- leaflets2 4y agoIf you could reverse time and say (or do) anything you would have wanted, and it wouldn't affect your future negatively, then what do you wish you had said? (I too find that joke distasteful)
- shanusmagnus 4y agoI had a narrative bubbling in my head at the time; can't remember exactly, but it was something like: "Jaak Panksepp was just here, and you know his work better than I do, which over several decades has established the rich emotional lives of mice. It seems to me that, given that, laughing at the terror you've caused these animals seems inappropriate. What do you think?" It's worth noting that I don't think saying that would have affected my career. I didn't say it because I didn't have the guts to stand up to the mob. Thus the guilt.
- weberer 4y agoI don't get it. Are you angry that he performed those fear studies, or just that he made a joke about it in the presentation? If you see the importance of the results gained from the former, you should have no problem with the latter. Scientists need a way to cope with their emotions as well.
- redtexture 4y agoAngry at himself for failing to publically point out and engage in discussion about the cruelty and terrorizing that was conducted, and well-understood by other science practitioners, and also the much of the audience present.
- shanusmagnus 4y agoI'm angry because if we agree that that work was important (not sure I do, but not the issue), then the sacrifice of basically torturing a bunch of animals to death in service of science should be treated soberly, with reverence. I'm kind of baffled that you think that I, or anyone, should have no problems with the described conduct. A surgeon, while operating with all diligence and conscientiousness, may from time to time kill a patient. That's life, it's table stakes to having surgery at all. The notion that it's cool if she jokes about killing the patient to "cope with her emotions" -- esp in an auditorium full of people -- is just fucking ... I dunno what to tell you if you think that.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- starwind 4y agoThere have been a couple times where I've said something like "I'm sorry, I'm not seeing what's so funny here" when people are laughing about something serious. You can either look like a humorless dick or you people snap out of it and then respect you for acting like an adult
- gowld 4y agoIn a room full of people whose entire career is based on torturing animals?
- waserwill 4y agoI've seen similar things. Besides many experiments not being remotely worth the harm they cause (poor design, niche topics without applications, dead end checking-all-the-boxes, etc.), they leave a mark on the people who conduct them. Some leave that sort of research out of distaste or disgust, and some become callous. It struck me that it inculcates an inhumane indifference to suffering. And numb scientists. It ultimately damages both the people and the science. Yet incentives (monetary, career progression) can push people past boundaries, and with time, erase them.
- shanusmagnus 4y agoI almost said something similar, the old Nietzsche quote about how if you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back. I didn't want to be even more dramatic, but I think you are exactly right. There's a cost to such things, and the externalities run deep and wide. All you can do is be very deliberate that the trade is worthwhile.
- tharne 4y ago> That silence is still among the top few of my regrets. Don't be too hard on yourself. The fact that you remember the incident and feel that regret shows a lot of emotional maturity and self awareness. I doubt many others that attended the talk that day even remember it.
- GuB-42 4y agoIt is not uncommon for people whose work involve a lot of death and suffering to indulge in dark humor. It is not that they don't care, quite the opposite in fact.
- bequanna 4y agoLaughing at the suffering of an animal that you caused isn’t exactly what I would call “dark humor”. It’s just wrong.