4 ms·

It's different only in paper. The US also can put lot of pressure on the companies via TLAs.

kube-system 4y ago
The situation in the US is not without valid criticism , but it is not even close to comparable with the legal environment in China. The US has a judicial branch that frequently operates at odds against its own executive branch, by design.
- rglullis 4y ago
  For the people who end up with their data on a government database, this is a distinction without a difference.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    The likelihood of that data being there and the way it is used varies greatly between the two systems. The reason you don’t see stories like this [0] in China, is because of this [1] 0: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/14/apple-refuses-barr-request-to-unlock-pensacola-shooters-iphones.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/14/apple-refuses-barr-request-t... 1: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351
- posterboy 4y ago
  > frequently once every blue moon? > by design that sounds much bigger than it is, a little like inteligent design. > not even close to comparable with the legal environment in China. So, you are literally saying that you are not in a position to compare them. Or at least you are saying it's so out of this world, it may be on another planet, a parallel universe even. Really, I have discovered a legitimate branch of legal research is in constitutional comparation (or whatever it's called). Sounds more promissing than it likely will be, surely a small field, but damn I'm intrigued. I do concede that this thread should focus on less whataboutism.
- simion314 4y ago
  >The US has a judicial branch that frequently operates at odds against its own executive branch, by design. Maybe if you are from US, if you are not from US you have no rights, US gov can spy on you, or even kill you without any legal consequences because it will be legal from US POV
  - kube-system 4y ago
    I'm mostly referring to the rights of private companies operating under US law to dispute executive action. Apple, for example, refuses to unlock phones regardless of the citizenship status of user.
    - dirtyid 4y ago
      Apple unlock drama was over "all writs act" where FBI compelled Apple to write new software to access user hardware versus using alleged (non)existing capabilities. FBI ended up using third party solutions, but after US gov decided to simply cirvumvent user layer via CLOUD act to simply legistate that manufactures have to make such remote access capabilities available, aka adopting PRC requirements. Seems to me, functionally US is not substantively different than PRC in having legal framework to gather any user cloud data. And with respect to Apple, for reference Apple maintain they didn't have capability to give user data to any government including PRC. They also handed icloud keys to PRC control a few months after Cloud Act, so technically Apple was "compromised" in US before PRC. At end of the day, US domestic lawfares achieves it's nationals security goals.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        I'm not defending the CLOUD act, but it is definitely a substantively different type of a situation than having your company completely nationalized as it was with GCBD.
        dirtyid 4y ago
        GCBD didn't nationalize Apple in PRC, it's data soverignty requirement same way TikTok was coerced/pressured to moved US data to Oracle US servers. Legal minutiae matterse less and less when outcomes consistently comparable. In terms of differing market environment, TikTok/Bytedance was one Trump EO away from being force sold to US companies (actual nationalization), which is more aggregious than PRC joint venture scheme that's at least upfront about requirements foreign companies operating in PRC. Apple didn't have to take GCBD deal, they wanted cloud business in PRC to keep selling iproducts. Meanwhile TikTok is bending backwards to follow US laws and still subject to various shenanigans according to changing admin whims. Functionally, it's not substantively different, US have alleged "better" laws, but also better lawfare to circumvent said laws. IMO this is just reality of mediating "strategic" foreign companies operating domestically, especially from "adversarial" countries. Set legal compliance onerously high and hope they leave. Western platforms left PRC because they couldn't stomach the filtering requriements that every PRC company has to shoulder. And when they finally adopted improve moderation due to requirements/pressure in their host country, they tried to get back into the PRC market. Meanwhile TikTok is sticking around US because Douyin survived burdens of PRC regulatory environment so what's another difficult market. Both markets are difficult, TikTok just better at playing ball in such enviroments. FB/Google can't even control their own employees from sabotaging their return to PRC.
throwaway29812 4y ago
Has the US Gov utilized data from private companies to aid in the targeting and internment of their own citizens ? https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-targets-xinjiangs-muslims https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-t...
- rglullis 4y ago
  Not yet. The only way to make sure that it continues like this is if nobody can collect the data.
  - throwaway29812 4y ago
    > Not yet. So no, the answer is no. And there are laws in place that prevent such a change from occurring. > nobody can collect the data. It's unrealistic to think no one will be scraping data. You just need laws around who can do it, can for what reasons. And enforcement. (all of these things only possible in non-autocratic countries)
    - rglullis 4y ago
      > laws in place that prevent such a change from occurring. Haven't you learned anything from Snowden? > You just need laws around who can do it, can for what reasons. You just make illegal to use personal data for any other thing that is not the service being directly provided to the customer. Personalized ads? Tracking cookies? Ad bids? Make all these illegal and the collection of data will stop being profitable. Stop making it profitable, and companies will no longer be interested in doing.
      - throwaway29812 4y ago
        We are talking about private industry working together with governments. The US has no intention nor legal ability to force private industry to work with them, outside of when they choose to. Unless a new patriot act comes along, which is highly unlikely to pass in 2022.

The situation in the US is not without valid criticism , but it is not even close to comparable with the legal environment in China. The US has a judicial branch that frequently operates at odds against its own executive branch, by design.

rglullis 4y ago
For the people who end up with their data on a government database, this is a distinction without a difference.
- kube-system 4y ago
  The likelihood of that data being there and the way it is used varies greatly between the two systems. The reason you don’t see stories like this [0] in China, is because of this [1] 0: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/14/apple-refuses-barr-request-to-unlock-pensacola-shooters-iphones.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/14/apple-refuses-barr-request-t... 1: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351
posterboy 4y ago
> frequently once every blue moon? > by design that sounds much bigger than it is, a little like inteligent design. > not even close to comparable with the legal environment in China. So, you are literally saying that you are not in a position to compare them. Or at least you are saying it's so out of this world, it may be on another planet, a parallel universe even. Really, I have discovered a legitimate branch of legal research is in constitutional comparation (or whatever it's called). Sounds more promissing than it likely will be, surely a small field, but damn I'm intrigued. I do concede that this thread should focus on less whataboutism.
simion314 4y ago
>The US has a judicial branch that frequently operates at odds against its own executive branch, by design. Maybe if you are from US, if you are not from US you have no rights, US gov can spy on you, or even kill you without any legal consequences because it will be legal from US POV
- kube-system 4y ago
  I'm mostly referring to the rights of private companies operating under US law to dispute executive action. Apple, for example, refuses to unlock phones regardless of the citizenship status of user.
  - dirtyid 4y ago
    Apple unlock drama was over "all writs act" where FBI compelled Apple to write new software to access user hardware versus using alleged (non)existing capabilities. FBI ended up using third party solutions, but after US gov decided to simply cirvumvent user layer via CLOUD act to simply legistate that manufactures have to make such remote access capabilities available, aka adopting PRC requirements. Seems to me, functionally US is not substantively different than PRC in having legal framework to gather any user cloud data. And with respect to Apple, for reference Apple maintain they didn't have capability to give user data to any government including PRC. They also handed icloud keys to PRC control a few months after Cloud Act, so technically Apple was "compromised" in US before PRC. At end of the day, US domestic lawfares achieves it's nationals security goals.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      I'm not defending the CLOUD act, but it is definitely a substantively different type of a situation than having your company completely nationalized as it was with GCBD.
      - dirtyid 4y ago
        GCBD didn't nationalize Apple in PRC, it's data soverignty requirement same way TikTok was coerced/pressured to moved US data to Oracle US servers. Legal minutiae matterse less and less when outcomes consistently comparable. In terms of differing market environment, TikTok/Bytedance was one Trump EO away from being force sold to US companies (actual nationalization), which is more aggregious than PRC joint venture scheme that's at least upfront about requirements foreign companies operating in PRC. Apple didn't have to take GCBD deal, they wanted cloud business in PRC to keep selling iproducts. Meanwhile TikTok is bending backwards to follow US laws and still subject to various shenanigans according to changing admin whims. Functionally, it's not substantively different, US have alleged "better" laws, but also better lawfare to circumvent said laws. IMO this is just reality of mediating "strategic" foreign companies operating domestically, especially from "adversarial" countries. Set legal compliance onerously high and hope they leave. Western platforms left PRC because they couldn't stomach the filtering requriements that every PRC company has to shoulder. And when they finally adopted improve moderation due to requirements/pressure in their host country, they tried to get back into the PRC market. Meanwhile TikTok is sticking around US because Douyin survived burdens of PRC regulatory environment so what's another difficult market. Both markets are difficult, TikTok just better at playing ball in such enviroments. FB/Google can't even control their own employees from sabotaging their return to PRC.

throwaway29812 4y ago

Has the US Gov utilized data from private companies to aid in the targeting and internment of their own citizens ? https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-targets-xinjiangs-muslims https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/12/09/china-big-data-program-t...

rglullis 4y ago
Not yet. The only way to make sure that it continues like this is if nobody can collect the data.
- throwaway29812 4y ago
  > Not yet. So no, the answer is no. And there are laws in place that prevent such a change from occurring. > nobody can collect the data. It's unrealistic to think no one will be scraping data. You just need laws around who can do it, can for what reasons. And enforcement. (all of these things only possible in non-autocratic countries)
  - rglullis 4y ago
    > laws in place that prevent such a change from occurring. Haven't you learned anything from Snowden? > You just need laws around who can do it, can for what reasons. You just make illegal to use personal data for any other thing that is not the service being directly provided to the customer. Personalized ads? Tracking cookies? Ad bids? Make all these illegal and the collection of data will stop being profitable. Stop making it profitable, and companies will no longer be interested in doing.
    - throwaway29812 4y ago
      We are talking about private industry working together with governments. The US has no intention nor legal ability to force private industry to work with them, outside of when they choose to. Unless a new patriot act comes along, which is highly unlikely to pass in 2022.