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I've spent quite a bit of time hacking my own F-Series BMW, and I can confirm it's a _huge_ pain in the ass, mostly because there is basically zero documentatio

I've spent quite a bit of time hacking my own F-Series BMW, and I can confirm it's a _huge_ pain in the ass, mostly because there is basically zero documentation on how to do it. IMO BMW also occasionally makes some bizarre engineering decisions, for instance, connect one long wire from an internal switch console to the DME unit (engine controller) rather than connect directly to an adjacent CANBUS that already went there. German engineering ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I've found the following tools helpful: - newtis.info (has literally all the wiring diagrams as well as a bunch of info on how systems are built and work together, though unfortunately the protocols aren't documented) - Esys (be able to flash new firmware to a control unit or modify settings within a control unit, plus it often contains helpful comments in a mix of English and German that explain what the various acronyms are) - German and American BMW forums (bimmerpost, 1erforum.de); aided of course by a lot of German <> English Google translate

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
Exactly. It's one thing to "do it right" but all the people who are hurring and durring about how every car has technology are forgetting that ze germans in their pursuit of ze perfect driving machine often don't "do it right" and unless you get lucky and own something a lot of enthusiasts own and have had time to fiddle with and document you're often on your own. The Americans and Japanese tend to be better because they tend to design things to be more tolerant of being used in a way other than the factory way but still the knowledge and skill barrier to entry is high and you still come across plenty of stuff that just won't cooperate unless you exactly replicate the OEM conditions.
- aeyes 4y ago
  When any company designs the electronics for a new car, they don't start on a clean sheet of paper. Existing designs are reused and adapted. Additional complexity is introduced because some of the electronics are from third parties, for example this Gear Selector is interfacing with a Bosch transmission controller which controls a ZF transmission.
- CraigJPerry 4y ago
  I’d go along with that - the first time i saw the rear suspension on a mazda rx8 - it looked so familiar, a multi-link style setup with the same core components of a contemporary BMW E38 or E39. One key difference - you can access all the bolts on the Mazda. Replacing rear shocks was a doddle, i’d done the same job on my old e38 and that was multiple days thanks to combining rust with awkward UX. The mazda had the same rust but was easy and safe enough to access with some heat and no need for universal joints which are never great when you’re using an impact driver.
  - posterboy 4y ago
    not sure if you are talking electronics anymore or mechanics.
    - allenrb 4y ago
      The usual giveaways for "mechanics" are torches and impact drivers, though more than once I've been tempted to use those things on electronics...
CraigJPerry 4y ago
If you’re willing to pay for access (it’s cheap for rare / one off access) bmw provides their AOS portal. https://aos.bmwgroup.com/web/oss/start https://aos.bmwgroup.com/web/oss/start - you’ll need something like an “icom next” to connect the car but it’ll do e-sys with the ability to install the latest firmwares. Some stuff (quite limited though) is available through the car data api - i think most f-series and all g-series i think have telematics. I have a 2018 f15 and that works. https://bmw-cardata.bmwgroup.com/thirdparty/public/repair-and-maintenance/technical-configuration/api-documentation https://bmw-cardata.bmwgroup.com/thirdparty/public/repair-an...
- hangonhn 4y ago
  Whoa! Thanks for sharing that. I've been scared to even change my battery myself because it requires interfacing with the computer. I didn't realize there was a BMW sanction way of accessing the APIs.
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  If you're comfortable with slightly shadier methods, there's "grey market" access to most BMW tools. With the F and G series ISTA is the "gold standard"
  - asciimike 4y ago
    Esys is available fairly easily: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26123409&postcount=40 https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26123409&po... (but as you say, there's some megaupload and a cracker involved).
  - bonestamp2 4y ago
    Can confirm. I paid a guy on a BMW forum about $100 for the vehicle interface, which is ethernet to a J1962 connector (aka "OBD II Port"). That also included the e-sys software (Windows only). A few years later I needed an update to the software and found a guy on ebay who charged me about $75. So, those might be some places to look for this kind of thing.
numpad0 4y ago
> wire from an internal switch console ... rather than connect directly to an adjacent CANBUS that already went there This type of design was not straightforward for me as well, but in the end this is because a car is topologically not an integrated machine with centralized control like a PC, but more like a network rack kitted with various systems, with user interfaces at the front and networking at the back. We tend to look at a driver's seat of a car and understand it as an equivalent to VT100, and that is not what it is; the controls in a car are for each discrete systems that shares a chassis. Therefore the control goes to respective systems and communications goes through the network.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

Exactly. It's one thing to "do it right" but all the people who are hurring and durring about how every car has technology are forgetting that ze germans in their pursuit of ze perfect driving machine often don't "do it right" and unless you get lucky and own something a lot of enthusiasts own and have had time to fiddle with and document you're often on your own. The Americans and Japanese tend to be better because they tend to design things to be more tolerant of being used in a way other than the factory way but still the knowledge and skill barrier to entry is high and you still come across plenty of stuff that just won't cooperate unless you exactly replicate the OEM conditions.

aeyes 4y ago
When any company designs the electronics for a new car, they don't start on a clean sheet of paper. Existing designs are reused and adapted. Additional complexity is introduced because some of the electronics are from third parties, for example this Gear Selector is interfacing with a Bosch transmission controller which controls a ZF transmission.
CraigJPerry 4y ago
I’d go along with that - the first time i saw the rear suspension on a mazda rx8 - it looked so familiar, a multi-link style setup with the same core components of a contemporary BMW E38 or E39. One key difference - you can access all the bolts on the Mazda. Replacing rear shocks was a doddle, i’d done the same job on my old e38 and that was multiple days thanks to combining rust with awkward UX. The mazda had the same rust but was easy and safe enough to access with some heat and no need for universal joints which are never great when you’re using an impact driver.
- posterboy 4y ago
  not sure if you are talking electronics anymore or mechanics.
  - allenrb 4y ago
    The usual giveaways for "mechanics" are torches and impact drivers, though more than once I've been tempted to use those things on electronics...

CraigJPerry 4y ago

If you’re willing to pay for access (it’s cheap for rare / one off access) bmw provides their AOS portal. https://aos.bmwgroup.com/web/oss/start https://aos.bmwgroup.com/web/oss/start - you’ll need something like an “icom next” to connect the car but it’ll do e-sys with the ability to install the latest firmwares. Some stuff (quite limited though) is available through the car data api - i think most f-series and all g-series i think have telematics. I have a 2018 f15 and that works. https://bmw-cardata.bmwgroup.com/thirdparty/public/repair-and-maintenance/technical-configuration/api-documentation https://bmw-cardata.bmwgroup.com/thirdparty/public/repair-an...

hangonhn 4y ago
Whoa! Thanks for sharing that. I've been scared to even change my battery myself because it requires interfacing with the computer. I didn't realize there was a BMW sanction way of accessing the APIs.
BoorishBears 4y ago
If you're comfortable with slightly shadier methods, there's "grey market" access to most BMW tools. With the F and G series ISTA is the "gold standard"
- asciimike 4y ago
  Esys is available fairly easily: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26123409&postcount=40 https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26123409&po... (but as you say, there's some megaupload and a cracker involved).
- bonestamp2 4y ago
  Can confirm. I paid a guy on a BMW forum about $100 for the vehicle interface, which is ethernet to a J1962 connector (aka "OBD II Port"). That also included the e-sys software (Windows only). A few years later I needed an update to the software and found a guy on ebay who charged me about $75. So, those might be some places to look for this kind of thing.

numpad0 4y ago

> wire from an internal switch console ... rather than connect directly to an adjacent CANBUS that already went there This type of design was not straightforward for me as well, but in the end this is because a car is topologically not an integrated machine with centralized control like a PC, but more like a network rack kitted with various systems, with user interfaces at the front and networking at the back. We tend to look at a driver's seat of a car and understand it as an equivalent to VT100, and that is not what it is; the controls in a car are for each discrete systems that shares a chassis. Therefore the control goes to respective systems and communications goes through the network.