4 ms·

Why not suffocate them with nitrogen or co2 or something?

by albrewer 4y ago

dymk 4y ago
$5 Home Depot bucket $189 nitrogen gas tank
- bell-cot 4y ago
  Plus any regulatory, liability, etc. issues that go along with having & regularly using stuff that could also suffocate your employees.
- BeFlatXIII 4y ago
  The things franchise owners will do to save pennies.
taylodl 4y ago
My daughter got an internship at a research lab this summer - where they have thousands and thousands of research mice and they kill several mice every day. She said CO2 works on adults and therefore that's what they use. But CO2 doesn't work on baby mice and is considered inhumane. Instead they use scissors and cut off the baby mice's heads. It's to be done swiftly so it's like a guillotine. The labs are continually monitored to ensure the animals are stressed as little as possible.
- themanmaran 4y ago
  I'm curious why the CO2 doesn't work on the babies. Is their rate of breathing just much slower?
- verisimi 4y ago
  > they use scissors and cut off the baby mice's heads. It's to be done swiftly so it's like a guillotine. Yes, that sounds fine. Much more humane. Carry on. As long as the ethics committee OKs it.
  - shard 4y ago
    It sounds like they had put some thought into which methods cause the least suffering. It doesn't sound like they were trying to skirt the edge of what the ethics committee would allow, which is how I read your comment. Please let me know if I have misinterpreted. As to possible alternative methods, those include freezing, which could be quite prolonged and painful, and blunt force trauma, which could be difficult/ambiguous to perform correctly and confirm correctness every time.
    - verisimi 4y ago
      Your assumption is that the mice must die. Given that its the case, you then wonder about the most effective means of killing them. But, pushing back on your assumption, what value can there possibly be in killing baby mice?
      - drdeca 4y ago
        Feeding snakes?
        verisimi 4y ago
        at the research lab?
        albrewer 4y ago
        Why not have research snakes? And a research mongoose to eat the research snakes? And research jackals to eat the research mongoose? And research lions to...
      - shard 4y ago
        Do you mean in general? There are two reasons given in this thread: medical research and pet (snake) food. I expect I don't need to explain why it's best to kill the mice humanely for medical research which involve dissection of some sort. For snake food, it's best to feed mice that have been euthanized. Feeding live mice is cruel to the mice, who experience terror right before death, and there is also the possibility that a struggling mice could injure the snake.
- posterboy 4y ago
  > But CO2 doesn't work on baby mice and is considered inhumane. > Instead they use scissors and [swiftly] oh snap! Mice must have a high nervous conductance rate and as small as they are, what do you reckon how quickly it had to go through for there to be no impulse to speak of? (ask her!)
Brybry 4y ago
Everyone agrees drowning is really not humane but nitrogen isn't approved either (rodents are not humans and so they might react to things like inert gas hypoxia differently). CO2 is common in labs though lab rats/mice do show aversion to CO2 which is interpreted to mean that it causes distress. So there's been ongoing debate for 20+ years over how humane CO2 is and what the correct flow rate should be and if oxygen should be added (or not) or other gasses (or not).[1] Something physical like direct concussion/blunt force trauma followed up by another method might be better[2] (needs more studying) but there's also issues with physical methods because they require more skill to do correctly (or tools/machines developed to negate the skill factor). Also operators dislike physical methods compared to gassing[1] so what's most practical might end up the standard[3] even if it may not be the most humane. I mean, theoretically if you could instantly crush a mouse, faster than brain/nerve signals can travel, that would be humane, right? But then a human has to deal with a gruesome crushed mouse. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035945/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035945/ [2] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00236772221097472 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00236772221097... [3] https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/2020-02/Guidelines-on-Euthanasia-2020.pdf https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/2020-02/Guidelines-...
- otherme123 4y ago
  20 years ago I worked in a place that killed them with acetone, covering the mice with a lab paper then wetting the paper with about 50 ml acetone per 50 animals and closing the lid. It was fast.

Why not suffocate them with nitrogen or co2 or something?

dymk 4y ago

$5 Home Depot bucket $189 nitrogen gas tank

bell-cot 4y ago
Plus any regulatory, liability, etc. issues that go along with having & regularly using stuff that could also suffocate your employees.
BeFlatXIII 4y ago
The things franchise owners will do to save pennies.

taylodl 4y ago

My daughter got an internship at a research lab this summer - where they have thousands and thousands of research mice and they kill several mice every day. She said CO2 works on adults and therefore that's what they use. But CO2 doesn't work on baby mice and is considered inhumane. Instead they use scissors and cut off the baby mice's heads. It's to be done swiftly so it's like a guillotine. The labs are continually monitored to ensure the animals are stressed as little as possible.

themanmaran 4y ago
I'm curious why the CO2 doesn't work on the babies. Is their rate of breathing just much slower?
verisimi 4y ago
> they use scissors and cut off the baby mice's heads. It's to be done swiftly so it's like a guillotine. Yes, that sounds fine. Much more humane. Carry on. As long as the ethics committee OKs it.
- shard 4y ago
  It sounds like they had put some thought into which methods cause the least suffering. It doesn't sound like they were trying to skirt the edge of what the ethics committee would allow, which is how I read your comment. Please let me know if I have misinterpreted. As to possible alternative methods, those include freezing, which could be quite prolonged and painful, and blunt force trauma, which could be difficult/ambiguous to perform correctly and confirm correctness every time.
  - verisimi 4y ago
    Your assumption is that the mice must die. Given that its the case, you then wonder about the most effective means of killing them. But, pushing back on your assumption, what value can there possibly be in killing baby mice?
    - drdeca 4y ago
      Feeding snakes?
      - verisimi 4y ago
        at the research lab?
        albrewer 4y ago
        Why not have research snakes? And a research mongoose to eat the research snakes? And research jackals to eat the research mongoose? And research lions to...
    - shard 4y ago
      Do you mean in general? There are two reasons given in this thread: medical research and pet (snake) food. I expect I don't need to explain why it's best to kill the mice humanely for medical research which involve dissection of some sort. For snake food, it's best to feed mice that have been euthanized. Feeding live mice is cruel to the mice, who experience terror right before death, and there is also the possibility that a struggling mice could injure the snake.
posterboy 4y ago
> But CO2 doesn't work on baby mice and is considered inhumane. > Instead they use scissors and [swiftly] oh snap! Mice must have a high nervous conductance rate and as small as they are, what do you reckon how quickly it had to go through for there to be no impulse to speak of? (ask her!)

Brybry 4y ago

Everyone agrees drowning is really not humane but nitrogen isn't approved either (rodents are not humans and so they might react to things like inert gas hypoxia differently). CO2 is common in labs though lab rats/mice do show aversion to CO2 which is interpreted to mean that it causes distress. So there's been ongoing debate for 20+ years over how humane CO2 is and what the correct flow rate should be and if oxygen should be added (or not) or other gasses (or not).[1] Something physical like direct concussion/blunt force trauma followed up by another method might be better[2] (needs more studying) but there's also issues with physical methods because they require more skill to do correctly (or tools/machines developed to negate the skill factor). Also operators dislike physical methods compared to gassing[1] so what's most practical might end up the standard[3] even if it may not be the most humane. I mean, theoretically if you could instantly crush a mouse, faster than brain/nerve signals can travel, that would be humane, right? But then a human has to deal with a gruesome crushed mouse. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035945/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035945/ [2] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00236772221097472 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00236772221097... [3] https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/2020-02/Guidelines-on-Euthanasia-2020.pdf https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/2020-02/Guidelines-...

otherme123 4y ago
20 years ago I worked in a place that killed them with acetone, covering the mice with a lab paper then wetting the paper with about 50 ml acetone per 50 animals and closing the lid. It was fast.