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St. John's woman loses home after Phoenix pay fiasco

40 points by ovis 4y ago

thatguy0900 4y ago
I'm confused about why she stayed? It doesn't say she ever got any money back. I would be gone after the first 0$ check, why would you stay after that?
- faeriechangling 4y ago
  She was working for the Canadian government, not shady joe’s fix-it shop, and thus likely thought the issue would be resolved long term. Plus I’m guessing she was on a defined benefit pension, creating an incentive to stay.
  - kurthr 4y ago
    Also, she was still being billed taxes after 3 years after being axed... for pay she never received!
- boopboopbadoop 4y ago
  I’d imagine it’s harder to come by jobs out there, and she had a reasonable belief that the gov would eventually pay her.
- tartoran 4y ago
  She stayed probably for the lack of other opportunities and the hope the government would get their crap together.
- mig39 4y ago
  Jobs, especially these kinds of jobs, are scarce in Newfoundland. I'm sure if she had options for other employment, she would have taken them. Even when working for CRA, she was only a seasonal contractor.
spacemanmatt 4y ago
IBM famously screwed up Texas' transit tag billing, too.
tartoran 4y ago
Giant systems of immense complexity that nobody can understand, what could go wrong? And even if they’re a complete failure, they’ll never admit to it
- commandlinefan 4y ago
  And the really frustrating thing is - there are people (like me and others on here right now) who'd be perfectly happy to sit and unravel and fix this monstrosity, but software development "how long is that going to take? And you'd better say a day" methodology prohibits any sort of complex/deep work.
  - briffle 4y ago
    Why would they choose you, when the contracted company can bill $300/hr per developer for 'change requests' to fix the system. They don't want to fix it, they want to fix each individual problem as it comes up.
dmix 4y ago
It's been 5 years since she first got $0 paychecks and this still hasn't been resolved? I'm confused why the union or whoever can't sue the government on their behalf. Or some lawyer takes on a bunch of their cases if it's 200k people affected.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
  The union can file a grievance with the government, but it can takes years to go through all the processes. She can't sue on her own.
stewx 4y ago
I read one expert describe the Phoenix pay system as "garbage in, garbage out". The government signed hundreds of separate collective bargaining agreements with public sector unions, each with their own different rules for pay, overtime, etc, making the system highly complex. Because of this complexity, the software handling it is full of bugs. Arguably it's partially a failure on the government's part not to negotiate a standard set of pay practices.
- ptudan 4y ago
  Or, they could have built a system capable of having a bunch of different knobs and levers that each CBA represents. Life is complex, technology should support that. We should not have to dumb life down to match.
  - stavros 4y ago
    > Life is complex, technology should support that. We should not have to dumb life down to match. This sentence implies that the opposite of "complex" is "dumb", though.
    - ptudan 4y ago
      Ignoring that this is pointless pedantry, I don't really think so. I think it says that complex is on the high end of the scale, and dumbing something down slides it towards the low end of simple.
      - stavros 4y ago
        I think things can be simpler without being dumb.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > The government signed hundreds of separate collective bargaining agreements with public sector unions... Arguably it's partially a failure on the government's part not to negotiate a standard set of pay practices. Honestly, I doubt the fault lies with unions. Did their previous pay system handle this? Don't private sector companies handle lots of different union rules? Doesn't stuff like SAP handle far more complicated legal and accounting rules across many many nations? My guess is what really happened is they cheaped out given their requirements and/or adopted too-aggressive deadlines, and the failure proceeded from there. > Because of this complexity, the software handling it is full of bugs. The world is complicated. It's hella backwards to expect it to twist to conform to what would be simple to implement in software.
yakak 4y ago
I'm not sure why they aren't treating this as a possible embezzlement? It seems to me like anyone familiar with this system could take payments for someone apparently without tracking and the result would be clawed back from later paychecks. Who is to say if 200k illegitimate bank accounts are receiving transfers every month?
redeeman 4y ago
it seems to be a natural law that once a society takes the steps to create a government that "grants" rights to the citizens, the road to a hell is already paved. It is now inevitable that the government will see citizens as their property, and all justice is lost.
0xbadc0de5 4y ago
So the tax collector also screws over their own employees and not just taxpayers? Welcome to the club, I guess.
shagie 4y ago
Some other context on the system: Anger rising over failed Phoenix Pay system - https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1173674563714 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1173674563714 (4 years ago) Former CRA auditor says even he ‘cannot fathom’ way out of Phoenix mess - https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2039588419529 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2039588419529 Public servants express 'zero faith' in Phoenix damages claims process after long waits - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/public-servant-phoenix-pay-system-claims-damages-1.6476630 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/public-servant-phoenix... (topic) Phoenix Falling - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/topic/Tag/Phoenix%20Falling https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/topic/Tag/Phoenix%20Falling Phoenix 'nightmare' still haunting public servants, more than 6 years on https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/phoenix-pay-system-issues-impact-public-servants-six-years-later-1.6457840 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/phoenix-pay-system-iss... Ottawa spent $560-million on damages over the Phoenix pay system, records show https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ottawa-paid-out-400-million-in-phoenix-pay-compensation-to-federal/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ottawa-paid... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_pay_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_pay_system The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada - Phoenix Pay category - https://pipsc.ca/news-issues/phoenix-pay-system https://pipsc.ca/news-issues/phoenix-pay-system (lots of linked articles)

40 points by ovis 4y ago

I'm confused about why she stayed? It doesn't say she ever got any money back. I would be gone after the first 0$ check, why would you stay after that?

faeriechangling 4y ago
She was working for the Canadian government, not shady joe’s fix-it shop, and thus likely thought the issue would be resolved long term. Plus I’m guessing she was on a defined benefit pension, creating an incentive to stay.
- kurthr 4y ago
  Also, she was still being billed taxes after 3 years after being axed... for pay she never received!
boopboopbadoop 4y ago
I’d imagine it’s harder to come by jobs out there, and she had a reasonable belief that the gov would eventually pay her.
tartoran 4y ago
She stayed probably for the lack of other opportunities and the hope the government would get their crap together.
mig39 4y ago
Jobs, especially these kinds of jobs, are scarce in Newfoundland. I'm sure if she had options for other employment, she would have taken them. Even when working for CRA, she was only a seasonal contractor.

spacemanmatt 4y ago

IBM famously screwed up Texas' transit tag billing, too.

tartoran 4y ago

Giant systems of immense complexity that nobody can understand, what could go wrong? And even if they’re a complete failure, they’ll never admit to it

commandlinefan 4y ago
And the really frustrating thing is - there are people (like me and others on here right now) who'd be perfectly happy to sit and unravel and fix this monstrosity, but software development "how long is that going to take? And you'd better say a day" methodology prohibits any sort of complex/deep work.
- briffle 4y ago
  Why would they choose you, when the contracted company can bill $300/hr per developer for 'change requests' to fix the system. They don't want to fix it, they want to fix each individual problem as it comes up.

dmix 4y ago

It's been 5 years since she first got $0 paychecks and this still hasn't been resolved? I'm confused why the union or whoever can't sue the government on their behalf. Or some lawyer takes on a bunch of their cases if it's 200k people affected.

Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
The union can file a grievance with the government, but it can takes years to go through all the processes. She can't sue on her own.

stewx 4y ago

I read one expert describe the Phoenix pay system as "garbage in, garbage out". The government signed hundreds of separate collective bargaining agreements with public sector unions, each with their own different rules for pay, overtime, etc, making the system highly complex. Because of this complexity, the software handling it is full of bugs. Arguably it's partially a failure on the government's part not to negotiate a standard set of pay practices.

ptudan 4y ago
Or, they could have built a system capable of having a bunch of different knobs and levers that each CBA represents. Life is complex, technology should support that. We should not have to dumb life down to match.
- stavros 4y ago
  > Life is complex, technology should support that. We should not have to dumb life down to match. This sentence implies that the opposite of "complex" is "dumb", though.
  - ptudan 4y ago
    Ignoring that this is pointless pedantry, I don't really think so. I think it says that complex is on the high end of the scale, and dumbing something down slides it towards the low end of simple.
    - stavros 4y ago
      I think things can be simpler without being dumb.
tablespoon 4y ago
> The government signed hundreds of separate collective bargaining agreements with public sector unions... Arguably it's partially a failure on the government's part not to negotiate a standard set of pay practices. Honestly, I doubt the fault lies with unions. Did their previous pay system handle this? Don't private sector companies handle lots of different union rules? Doesn't stuff like SAP handle far more complicated legal and accounting rules across many many nations? My guess is what really happened is they cheaped out given their requirements and/or adopted too-aggressive deadlines, and the failure proceeded from there. > Because of this complexity, the software handling it is full of bugs. The world is complicated. It's hella backwards to expect it to twist to conform to what would be simple to implement in software.

yakak 4y ago

I'm not sure why they aren't treating this as a possible embezzlement? It seems to me like anyone familiar with this system could take payments for someone apparently without tracking and the result would be clawed back from later paychecks. Who is to say if 200k illegitimate bank accounts are receiving transfers every month?

redeeman 4y ago

it seems to be a natural law that once a society takes the steps to create a government that "grants" rights to the citizens, the road to a hell is already paved. It is now inevitable that the government will see citizens as their property, and all justice is lost.

0xbadc0de5 4y ago

So the tax collector also screws over their own employees and not just taxpayers? Welcome to the club, I guess.

shagie 4y ago

Some other context on the system: Anger rising over failed Phoenix Pay system - https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1173674563714 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1173674563714 (4 years ago) Former CRA auditor says even he ‘cannot fathom’ way out of Phoenix mess - https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2039588419529 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2039588419529 Public servants express 'zero faith' in Phoenix damages claims process after long waits - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/public-servant-phoenix-pay-system-claims-damages-1.6476630 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/public-servant-phoenix... (topic) Phoenix Falling - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/topic/Tag/Phoenix%20Falling https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/topic/Tag/Phoenix%20Falling Phoenix 'nightmare' still haunting public servants, more than 6 years on https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/phoenix-pay-system-issues-impact-public-servants-six-years-later-1.6457840 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/phoenix-pay-system-iss... Ottawa spent $560-million on damages over the Phoenix pay system, records show https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ottawa-paid-out-400-million-in-phoenix-pay-compensation-to-federal/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ottawa-paid... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_pay_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_pay_system The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada - Phoenix Pay category - https://pipsc.ca/news-issues/phoenix-pay-system https://pipsc.ca/news-issues/phoenix-pay-system (lots of linked articles)