4 ms·

i think this shows only that social species' behaviours are fine tuned to the environment they have evolved in and drastically changing said environment require

by mlatu 4y ago

i think this shows only that social species' behaviours are fine tuned to the environment they have evolved in and drastically changing said environment requires the species to adapt in order to survive. i feel like there should be a pen size above which such an experiment might run indefinetly. but my gut tells me: no matter the size, it will always eventually crash and burn because mice can't "talk it out" i think the only possible lesson here is: if you send a generation ship to alpha centauri, you better make sure they all have at least one common language.

JoeAltmaier 4y ago
I was following that until the language thing. How does talking, make more room?
- cdot2 4y ago
  It doesn't make more room but it would help people develop a society that adjusts for the new environment.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  One half of the mice could talk among themselves and go to war with the other half, perhaps.
  - mantas 4y ago
    Ukraine and Russia is a good example… oh wait!
- mlatu 4y ago
  when was the last time you had to fight with someone using just words and how do you think would that interaction have been if you and your counterpart had not used words but teeth, fists and fingernails instead? assuming you had the same standing to each other prior to the fight, would you two be able to interact the same afterwards, regardless who won? it doesnt make more room, but it allows for compromises
  - JoeAltmaier 4y ago
    Humans haven't had a good track record. I don't imagine mice would do any better.
    - jjoonathan 4y ago
      Humans have a poor track record compared to what? An ideal zero-conflict state? Sure. Animals that kill each other because they cross paths during breeding season? Not at all. Compared to them, we are masters of negotiation and compromise.
wongarsu 4y ago
Humans are more adaptable even without explicit communication. We seem to vary our reproduction rate based on the life expectancy of our offspring. Lots of children during and shortly after war, or when child mortality is high, but much fewer when it's near certain that our offspring will live to old age. Though we have some other problems like tribalism that might be down to the environment we evolved in, and not having a common language would make those a lot worse.
- throwaway4aday 4y ago
  > We seem to vary our reproduction rate based on the life expectancy of our offspring I don't think the life expectancy of the offspring is the only factor. Birth control certainly contributes, education is known to as well, wealth, working status and legal equality of women, and now there seems to be a whole new set of influences on the younger generations. It also doesn't seem to be a finely tuned feedback system, if anything it seems closer to the messy outcome of Universe 25 where reproduction broke down due to poor socialization and rearing and an overabundance of stressors.
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    You are right that there are certainly countless factors, and it's a messy system. You can clearly see economic troubles suppressing birth numbers, or the introduction of the pill that drove most Western societies to a birth rate below the replacement level. You can also see clear differences caused by politics/ideological systems. But the coupling between birth rate and death rate seems the strongest overall predictor, with the lag between the two driving many population booms. As a consequence, Western nations saw the biggest decline in birth rates in the beginning of the 20th century [1] 1: https://i.imgur.com/jhyvMWX.png https://i.imgur.com/jhyvMWX.png
    - shard 4y ago
      I always thought effects such as environmental chemical pollution (estrogen analogs), overreliance on nighttime lighting / artificial temperature regulation and dietary issues leading to obesity (both previous items reducing fertility), and increasing cost of raising children (leading to higher investment in fewer children) are some of the main factors leading to decreases in birth rate in developed nations.
Tepix 4y ago
Related: The book "Heaven's River" by Dennis E. Taylor (part 4 of the bobiverse series) contains an interesting Utopia, similar to a generation ship. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42950440-heaven-s-river https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42950440-heaven-s-river https://www.goodreads.com/series/192752-bobiverse https://www.goodreads.com/series/192752-bobiverse
- matthewfcarlson 4y ago
  I really enjoy this series. I feel like it is one of the few stories that really explores what it would like to be an uploaded mind without a significant amount of handwaving. There's still some sci-fi elements to it but they seem believable.
BitwiseFool 4y ago
>"i think the only possible lesson here is: if you send a generation ship to alpha centauri, you better make sure they all have at least one common language." I suspect that if a generation ship wasn't launched with a monolinguistic population a Creole would rapidly develop and the end result would be a new common language.

by mlatu 4y ago

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

I was following that until the language thing. How does talking, make more room?

cdot2 4y ago
It doesn't make more room but it would help people develop a society that adjusts for the new environment.
HPsquared 4y ago
One half of the mice could talk among themselves and go to war with the other half, perhaps.
- mantas 4y ago
  Ukraine and Russia is a good example… oh wait!
mlatu 4y ago
when was the last time you had to fight with someone using just words and how do you think would that interaction have been if you and your counterpart had not used words but teeth, fists and fingernails instead? assuming you had the same standing to each other prior to the fight, would you two be able to interact the same afterwards, regardless who won? it doesnt make more room, but it allows for compromises
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  Humans haven't had a good track record. I don't imagine mice would do any better.
  - jjoonathan 4y ago
    Humans have a poor track record compared to what? An ideal zero-conflict state? Sure. Animals that kill each other because they cross paths during breeding season? Not at all. Compared to them, we are masters of negotiation and compromise.

wongarsu 4y ago

Humans are more adaptable even without explicit communication. We seem to vary our reproduction rate based on the life expectancy of our offspring. Lots of children during and shortly after war, or when child mortality is high, but much fewer when it's near certain that our offspring will live to old age. Though we have some other problems like tribalism that might be down to the environment we evolved in, and not having a common language would make those a lot worse.

throwaway4aday 4y ago
> We seem to vary our reproduction rate based on the life expectancy of our offspring I don't think the life expectancy of the offspring is the only factor. Birth control certainly contributes, education is known to as well, wealth, working status and legal equality of women, and now there seems to be a whole new set of influences on the younger generations. It also doesn't seem to be a finely tuned feedback system, if anything it seems closer to the messy outcome of Universe 25 where reproduction broke down due to poor socialization and rearing and an overabundance of stressors.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  You are right that there are certainly countless factors, and it's a messy system. You can clearly see economic troubles suppressing birth numbers, or the introduction of the pill that drove most Western societies to a birth rate below the replacement level. You can also see clear differences caused by politics/ideological systems. But the coupling between birth rate and death rate seems the strongest overall predictor, with the lag between the two driving many population booms. As a consequence, Western nations saw the biggest decline in birth rates in the beginning of the 20th century [1] 1: https://i.imgur.com/jhyvMWX.png https://i.imgur.com/jhyvMWX.png
  - shard 4y ago
    I always thought effects such as environmental chemical pollution (estrogen analogs), overreliance on nighttime lighting / artificial temperature regulation and dietary issues leading to obesity (both previous items reducing fertility), and increasing cost of raising children (leading to higher investment in fewer children) are some of the main factors leading to decreases in birth rate in developed nations.

Tepix 4y ago

Related: The book "Heaven's River" by Dennis E. Taylor (part 4 of the bobiverse series) contains an interesting Utopia, similar to a generation ship. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42950440-heaven-s-river https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42950440-heaven-s-river https://www.goodreads.com/series/192752-bobiverse https://www.goodreads.com/series/192752-bobiverse

matthewfcarlson 4y ago
I really enjoy this series. I feel like it is one of the few stories that really explores what it would like to be an uploaded mind without a significant amount of handwaving. There's still some sci-fi elements to it but they seem believable.

BitwiseFool 4y ago

>"i think the only possible lesson here is: if you send a generation ship to alpha centauri, you better make sure they all have at least one common language." I suspect that if a generation ship wasn't launched with a monolinguistic population a Creole would rapidly develop and the end result would be a new common language.