3 ms·

True, I didn't offer a mathematical proof. Though I can offer my personal experiences growing up in a racist urban environment. One of many memories which stand

True, I didn't offer a mathematical proof. Though I can offer my personal experiences growing up in a racist urban environment. One of many memories which stand out was during gym class, when a 12 year old White person whispered into my ear, "It smells like niggers in honey." (Where did he come up with that?) Maybe I can recommend Tim Wise, if you wish to delve deeper? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2mjvFNOwmc&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2mjvFNOwmc&feature=relat...) But I do not think racist attitudes account for everything. Far more important is institutional racism. (Institutional analysis is by nature impersonal: if you replace all the individuals, the institutions will operate pretty much the same. Same racist outcomes.)

alttag 15y ago
Even within the U.S., it's been my observation that the sort of embedded undercurrent of racism you seem to be addressing varies widely by geography and generation. For example, I grew up on the Pacific coast and went to high school in the Seattle area. I didn't observe what I would call overt acts of racism (whether it was lack of awareness or lack of incidence is another argument). There were enough people of every ancestry possible that racism seemed like a silly idea. Later (in my 20s) I lived in and visited many places in the Rocky Mountain area. In many communities there was a significant population of Hispanics. Too often, they were poor, typically as a consequence of recent immigration (generationally) or education. However, the social environment was unfortunately such that it reinforced negative stereotypes. By this I mean that if the only people of another race you encounter on a daily basis were poor (and everyone successful looks like you), subconsciously your behavior with regard to that population will change. There aren't enough teachers and school leaders (for example) of Hispanic descent in areas with high Hispanic populations. Research shows that this is because those that go to college choose not to teach because the salaries put them in near poverty conditions—something many are trying to escape via higher education. (To this point, we in the U.S. have created self-reinforcing discriminatory environment years ago with segregation, which limited educational attainment to a large population. By doing so, policy and practice practically ensured poverty and its associated ills. We're getting over it, but it will take time. Moving large groups from poverty can take a couple of generations.) In the South (I'm now in Georgia), I find that race is mostly an issue for those about 15 years older than me—those that lived during times where discrimination was more overt. As we were house hunting, more than one well-meaning (but misguided) elderly person suggested the neighborhood had gone downhill since [$race] moved in. The social conditions where we grow up matter. The presence or absence of successful people of different races matters. Geography (and local history) matters. The extent to which people have traveled or moved from where they grew up matters.
- grammaton 15y ago
  Thank you for an extremely illuminating and well thought out post. This information right here should absolutely be a much bigger part of the wider societal discussion on race than it is.
ahoyhere 15y ago
calibraxis, the thing about that is that what that kid said SOUNDED racist. But really the kid was just a little asshole. If you were white and had coke bottle lenses, he'd still have been nasty to you, he just would have done it a different way. Or if you were overweight. Or red-headed and covered with freckles. Or Asian. Or the poor kid who had holes in his clothes. Or were too eager to answer the teacher's questions… correctly. As the poor, chubby, too-smart girl, I got smeared with all kinds of shit in elementary & middle school. Then one day I realized: it's not about me, it's about them. It's like "sexism" too: If a bunch of sad, pathetic men hate & resent somebody and she's a woman, their insults will be sexual. But if a bunch of sad, pathetic men hate & resent another man, their comments will be equally vicious, they just aren't always sexual. But whereas the hated men do not think "oh no, it's because I am…" or "It's because I have a penis," they realize that the reason they're being picked on is petty jealousy and that WHAT the jerks say is actually immaterial. On the other hand, a woman will assume it's actually because she's a woman. I've watched this play out over & over & over. The bottom line is that people are assholes, and they will pick on ANYTHING different if they want to be mean to you. That doesn't mean you should assume the reason they are mean is because you have something different. They're just assholes with an opportunistic bent.
- calibraxis 15y ago
  Let me clarify: I'm not Black. ;) He was just making an observation, like bad weather. (And by the way, I understood Grammaton above to be speaking of racist attitudes, not institutional racism. Two different things. People overfocus on attitudes and slurs; but I don't wish to sidetrack from the more important issue of institutional racism.)

alttag 15y ago

Even within the U.S., it's been my observation that the sort of embedded undercurrent of racism you seem to be addressing varies widely by geography and generation. For example, I grew up on the Pacific coast and went to high school in the Seattle area. I didn't observe what I would call overt acts of racism (whether it was lack of awareness or lack of incidence is another argument). There were enough people of every ancestry possible that racism seemed like a silly idea. Later (in my 20s) I lived in and visited many places in the Rocky Mountain area. In many communities there was a significant population of Hispanics. Too often, they were poor, typically as a consequence of recent immigration (generationally) or education. However, the social environment was unfortunately such that it reinforced negative stereotypes. By this I mean that if the only people of another race you encounter on a daily basis were poor (and everyone successful looks like you), subconsciously your behavior with regard to that population will change. There aren't enough teachers and school leaders (for example) of Hispanic descent in areas with high Hispanic populations. Research shows that this is because those that go to college choose not to teach because the salaries put them in near poverty conditions—something many are trying to escape via higher education. (To this point, we in the U.S. have created self-reinforcing discriminatory environment years ago with segregation, which limited educational attainment to a large population. By doing so, policy and practice practically ensured poverty and its associated ills. We're getting over it, but it will take time. Moving large groups from poverty can take a couple of generations.) In the South (I'm now in Georgia), I find that race is mostly an issue for those about 15 years older than me—those that lived during times where discrimination was more overt. As we were house hunting, more than one well-meaning (but misguided) elderly person suggested the neighborhood had gone downhill since [$race] moved in. The social conditions where we grow up matter. The presence or absence of successful people of different races matters. Geography (and local history) matters. The extent to which people have traveled or moved from where they grew up matters.

grammaton 15y ago
Thank you for an extremely illuminating and well thought out post. This information right here should absolutely be a much bigger part of the wider societal discussion on race than it is.

ahoyhere 15y ago

calibraxis, the thing about that is that what that kid said SOUNDED racist. But really the kid was just a little asshole. If you were white and had coke bottle lenses, he'd still have been nasty to you, he just would have done it a different way. Or if you were overweight. Or red-headed and covered with freckles. Or Asian. Or the poor kid who had holes in his clothes. Or were too eager to answer the teacher's questions… correctly. As the poor, chubby, too-smart girl, I got smeared with all kinds of shit in elementary & middle school. Then one day I realized: it's not about me, it's about them. It's like "sexism" too: If a bunch of sad, pathetic men hate & resent somebody and she's a woman, their insults will be sexual. But if a bunch of sad, pathetic men hate & resent another man, their comments will be equally vicious, they just aren't always sexual. But whereas the hated men do not think "oh no, it's because I am…" or "It's because I have a penis," they realize that the reason they're being picked on is petty jealousy and that WHAT the jerks say is actually immaterial. On the other hand, a woman will assume it's actually because she's a woman. I've watched this play out over & over & over. The bottom line is that people are assholes, and they will pick on ANYTHING different if they want to be mean to you. That doesn't mean you should assume the reason they are mean is because you have something different. They're just assholes with an opportunistic bent.

calibraxis 15y ago
Let me clarify: I'm not Black. ;) He was just making an observation, like bad weather. (And by the way, I understood Grammaton above to be speaking of racist attitudes, not institutional racism. Two different things. People overfocus on attitudes and slurs; but I don't wish to sidetrack from the more important issue of institutional racism.)