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If Linux distros implemented every feature "new users" wanted then you would end up with something nearly identical to ChromiumOS (and those same users would pr

by usrn 4y ago

If Linux distros implemented every feature "new users" wanted then you would end up with something nearly identical to ChromiumOS (and those same users would probably just run ChromeOS.) If you want that then go run that. EDIT: Everyone here knows how to type "sudo apt install thunderbird." People are failing to install bleeding edge software. This shouldn't be surprising or upsetting.

suby 4y ago
This isn't just a feature, this is installing apps. Many users are failing to install apps. Users on this forum, even, which is telling because this forum is a sort of filter to select those who are more tech savy than the average person. There is a usability issue here that absolutely should be talked about and addressed, which involves a solution that isn't "switch to chrome OS".
- zdragnar 4y ago
  I would hazard a guess that many users on this forum are really only familiar with macOS and a smattering of CLI magical invocations. Package managers exist for a reason. Flatpack, snap etc all exist. You can't just hand wave real complexity away by yelling "usability!" without having fiat power over an incredibly diverse ecosystem. The lowest common denominator for installing software on Linux distributions is well below what an incurious user will put up with. If you don't want to understand that kind of low level tinkering, you have to wait for whatever ecosystem you bought into to catch up. That might mean moving back to Apple's curated experience. That's fine; so long as Linux itself isn't a curated walled garden, it'll never be as seamless in every instance, and that's not for everyone.
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  > There is a usability issue here that absolutely should be talked about and addressed Addressed by whom, exactly? "The Linux community" is busy addressing the things they care about. Nobody is telling anybody to use Linux if it doesn't work for their needs.
landryraccoon 4y ago
I think we're assuming that if an application ever wants to be "mainstream", it has to be useable by people who don't know what a command line is, let alone what "sudo" means.
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  I'm not sure why it matters. In discussions like this there seems to be the assumption that Linux must be usable by non-technical people, and if it isn't, then someone is doing something wrong. Linux is immensely useful to me and everyone else who uses it. It doesn't really bother me that my mom doesn't use it; she is perfectly happy with Windows. If someone made a Linux distro that was exactly as polished and easy-to-use for non-technical people as macOS or Windows is, it would not affect me at all. Who is this strawman entity who "wants Linux to be mainstream" ? Does anyone really care? Certainly my mom doesn't, and as far as I can tell, most Linux users who are happy with it don't either. Furthermore, it's quite easy to understand why this hasn't happened, as doing that would cost huge amounts of money and there is no incentive structure that exists to raise it.
  - smaudet 4y ago
    > Who is this strawman entity who "wants Linux to be mainstream" ? Does anyone really care? I think it's basic human desire for things to be relatable, but more than that there are those who experience the tyranny of 'modern' life - if you interface with the world, it is perhaps natural to want to do so simply, constantly switching contexts is not productive. I suppose, I do really care, because every time I am forced to use a system which I don't really want to use, is another time I don't really like the world I live in, I am resentful, and ultimately I really want to not care at all about the device in question. So, for a wide range of devices I interact with, I view them as trash, because I don't care about trash either, except to remove it from my home on a regular basis. There are others like me, I know, and there are others in similar positions but not about linux I know as well, e.g. anyone who has ever read a good book and wishes the author were more well read, and simultaneously is affronted by the cheap dime novellas they encounter while e.g. browsing a department store. "Furthermore, it's quite easy to understand why this hasn't happened, as doing that would cost huge amounts of money and there is no incentive structure that exists to raise it." There isn't, yet. There are various companies which have sought to bring it there. To use the (perhaps bad) author metaphor, we haven't had our JK Rowling moment yet. There have been pushes, e.g. Ubuntu, Redhat, but so far market forces have conspired against us, not necessarily because no one cares or no attempts have been made.

by usrn 4y ago

suby 4y ago

This isn't just a feature, this is installing apps. Many users are failing to install apps. Users on this forum, even, which is telling because this forum is a sort of filter to select those who are more tech savy than the average person. There is a usability issue here that absolutely should be talked about and addressed, which involves a solution that isn't "switch to chrome OS".

zdragnar 4y ago
I would hazard a guess that many users on this forum are really only familiar with macOS and a smattering of CLI magical invocations. Package managers exist for a reason. Flatpack, snap etc all exist. You can't just hand wave real complexity away by yelling "usability!" without having fiat power over an incredibly diverse ecosystem. The lowest common denominator for installing software on Linux distributions is well below what an incurious user will put up with. If you don't want to understand that kind of low level tinkering, you have to wait for whatever ecosystem you bought into to catch up. That might mean moving back to Apple's curated experience. That's fine; so long as Linux itself isn't a curated walled garden, it'll never be as seamless in every instance, and that's not for everyone.
School-Cotton 4y ago
> There is a usability issue here that absolutely should be talked about and addressed Addressed by whom, exactly? "The Linux community" is busy addressing the things they care about. Nobody is telling anybody to use Linux if it doesn't work for their needs.

landryraccoon 4y ago

I think we're assuming that if an application ever wants to be "mainstream", it has to be useable by people who don't know what a command line is, let alone what "sudo" means.

School-Cotton 4y ago
I'm not sure why it matters. In discussions like this there seems to be the assumption that Linux must be usable by non-technical people, and if it isn't, then someone is doing something wrong. Linux is immensely useful to me and everyone else who uses it. It doesn't really bother me that my mom doesn't use it; she is perfectly happy with Windows. If someone made a Linux distro that was exactly as polished and easy-to-use for non-technical people as macOS or Windows is, it would not affect me at all. Who is this strawman entity who "wants Linux to be mainstream" ? Does anyone really care? Certainly my mom doesn't, and as far as I can tell, most Linux users who are happy with it don't either. Furthermore, it's quite easy to understand why this hasn't happened, as doing that would cost huge amounts of money and there is no incentive structure that exists to raise it.
- smaudet 4y ago
  > Who is this strawman entity who "wants Linux to be mainstream" ? Does anyone really care? I think it's basic human desire for things to be relatable, but more than that there are those who experience the tyranny of 'modern' life - if you interface with the world, it is perhaps natural to want to do so simply, constantly switching contexts is not productive. I suppose, I do really care, because every time I am forced to use a system which I don't really want to use, is another time I don't really like the world I live in, I am resentful, and ultimately I really want to not care at all about the device in question. So, for a wide range of devices I interact with, I view them as trash, because I don't care about trash either, except to remove it from my home on a regular basis. There are others like me, I know, and there are others in similar positions but not about linux I know as well, e.g. anyone who has ever read a good book and wishes the author were more well read, and simultaneously is affronted by the cheap dime novellas they encounter while e.g. browsing a department store. "Furthermore, it's quite easy to understand why this hasn't happened, as doing that would cost huge amounts of money and there is no incentive structure that exists to raise it." There isn't, yet. There are various companies which have sought to bring it there. To use the (perhaps bad) author metaphor, we haven't had our JK Rowling moment yet. There have been pushes, e.g. Ubuntu, Redhat, but so far market forces have conspired against us, not necessarily because no one cares or no attempts have been made.