5 ms·

Even young America has this issue: Appalachian, the dialects in Newfoundland, island pidgins, Cajun are all diminishing.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Is Appalachian a language, or a dialect? (I guess I'm assuming, first, that there is a reasonably sharp distinction, and second, that Aramaic falls into the "language" category.)
- the_biot 4y ago
  My personal opinion, not a linguist: All languages start as dialects, and the point at which they become a separate language is arbitrary, more a matter of opinion than a hard rule. Languages are created by people speaking another language badly.
  - koolba 4y ago
    > All languages start as dialects, and the point at which they become a separate language is arbitrary, more a matter of opinion than a hard rule. Having an army is a sufficient but not necessary condition.
    - inglor_cz 4y ago
      Despite having the largest army in the world, Americans still speak English.
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    the definition linguists use is, "the only difference between a dialect and a language is, a language has a navy"
    - kubanczyk 4y ago
      It's more of a quip: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_a... One can use "variety" to side-step the whole problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect
- x3iv130f 4y ago
  Language vs dialect is a political question, not a scientific one. There are plenty of mutually unintelligible dialects and plenty of mutually intelligible languages.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    So I looked it up. Wikipedia (for what that's worth) clearly says that linguistically it is a dialect of American English. The dispute is over whether it is a separate dialect, or part of the Southern dialect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_English
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    That seems far too simplistic. I'm a native Dutch speaker, and can understand written Afrikaans (spoken can be a bit harder), but it's still clearly a different language with different spelling, grammar, pronunciation, and literature. I looked up some examples of Appalachian on YouTube, and I can follow it surprisingly easy – much easier than I would have expected after reading this thread – as a proficient but non-native English speaker. It's certainly not a different language; I have more trouble understanding some dialects in my native Dutch. There is absolutely a grey area where things start to diverge, and this is where politics and the (self-)identification of the people who speak the language(s) can come in to play. Classification is always hard (see also: defining "species" of animals), but a blanket "it's a political question, full stop" is far too strong and hand-wavy.
    - int_19h 4y ago
      In this case, it is, nevertheless, correct. There's simply no clear-cut objective boundary here. You can arbitrarily define one as N% of mutual intelligibility, but then your pick of N is itself a political question. Keep in mind that many of what we today consider distinct languages historically formed a dialect continuum - usually geographic, where you can observe gradual changes as you travel, which may add up to the extent that there's no real mutual intelligibility between the beginning and the end of your path. Are they different languages at that point? If so, what does that make of all the gradual steps in between? The stark language boundaries that we're more familiar with today are largely due to states aggressively encouraging (or outright forcing) some kind of language standard on what was before a dialect continuum area, smoothing out the differences within it while sharpening them at the borders. This process kicked into high gear with the rise of nation-states, which would often do so for ideological reasons - basically, to force conformity and reify the abstract notion of "one people". But it hasn't happened everywhere to the same extent as it did in Europe, and there are still plenty of places around the globe where clear language boundaries don't really exist.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago

Is Appalachian a language, or a dialect? (I guess I'm assuming, first, that there is a reasonably sharp distinction, and second, that Aramaic falls into the "language" category.)

the_biot 4y ago
My personal opinion, not a linguist: All languages start as dialects, and the point at which they become a separate language is arbitrary, more a matter of opinion than a hard rule. Languages are created by people speaking another language badly.
- koolba 4y ago
  > All languages start as dialects, and the point at which they become a separate language is arbitrary, more a matter of opinion than a hard rule. Having an army is a sufficient but not necessary condition.
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    Despite having the largest army in the world, Americans still speak English.
- fsckboy 4y ago
  the definition linguists use is, "the only difference between a dialect and a language is, a language has a navy"
  - kubanczyk 4y ago
    It's more of a quip: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_a... One can use "variety" to side-step the whole problem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect
x3iv130f 4y ago
Language vs dialect is a political question, not a scientific one. There are plenty of mutually unintelligible dialects and plenty of mutually intelligible languages.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  So I looked it up. Wikipedia (for what that's worth) clearly says that linguistically it is a dialect of American English. The dispute is over whether it is a separate dialect, or part of the Southern dialect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_English
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  That seems far too simplistic. I'm a native Dutch speaker, and can understand written Afrikaans (spoken can be a bit harder), but it's still clearly a different language with different spelling, grammar, pronunciation, and literature. I looked up some examples of Appalachian on YouTube, and I can follow it surprisingly easy – much easier than I would have expected after reading this thread – as a proficient but non-native English speaker. It's certainly not a different language; I have more trouble understanding some dialects in my native Dutch. There is absolutely a grey area where things start to diverge, and this is where politics and the (self-)identification of the people who speak the language(s) can come in to play. Classification is always hard (see also: defining "species" of animals), but a blanket "it's a political question, full stop" is far too strong and hand-wavy.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    In this case, it is, nevertheless, correct. There's simply no clear-cut objective boundary here. You can arbitrarily define one as N% of mutual intelligibility, but then your pick of N is itself a political question. Keep in mind that many of what we today consider distinct languages historically formed a dialect continuum - usually geographic, where you can observe gradual changes as you travel, which may add up to the extent that there's no real mutual intelligibility between the beginning and the end of your path. Are they different languages at that point? If so, what does that make of all the gradual steps in between? The stark language boundaries that we're more familiar with today are largely due to states aggressively encouraging (or outright forcing) some kind of language standard on what was before a dialect continuum area, smoothing out the differences within it while sharpening them at the borders. This process kicked into high gear with the rise of nation-states, which would often do so for ideological reasons - basically, to force conformity and reify the abstract notion of "one people". But it hasn't happened everywhere to the same extent as it did in Europe, and there are still plenty of places around the globe where clear language boundaries don't really exist.