4 ms·

It doesn't ban sales, it bans unregistered, non background checked sales. I don't see what is nonsense about it, the same law already applies to cars. If you l

It doesn't ban sales, it bans unregistered, non background checked sales. I don't see what is nonsense about it, the same law already applies to cars. If you loan your car to someone and they commit a crime with it, you can face charges for it. If you sell your car without a termination of interest notice filed with the state and the new owner doesn't file the signed title, it is still legally your car and what the new owner does with it can get you in legal trouble.

notch656a 4y ago
I'm not aware of any federal law that makes it illegal to sell a car without registering it or titling it. I'm definitely not aware of any law that requires background check to buy or transfer a car (Dealership license may require it, but not private party transaction). In general if you have no reason to believe someone will commit a crime with your car, you typically can't be found criminally liable for merely loaning it out. With firearms, it's actually a federal crime to lend a firearm to an out of state resident except for lawful sporting purposes (not general purposes, like lawful self defense).
- spacemanmatt 4y ago
  > I'm not aware of any federal law that makes it illegal to sell a car without registering it or titling it if your car is involved in a crime, the cops will come looking for you. maybe you can beat a conviction but you might face an uphill battle even with an attorney. but sure, it's not illegal to sell a car without transferring the title, but neither is it considered a legal sale. that is still your car as long as the title is in your name.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    >if your car is involved in a crime, the cops will come looking for you. Sure, they'll come looking for you. Registration and titling of cars just makes that even worse, not better, for innocent people who lend out cars. If that's your argument, that's one against having registration / serial numbers / record of transferring firearms. The police can also rake you over the coals for anything. I had a search warrant once served to me because a few corrupt DHS agents (CBP and HSI) fabricated a warrant that suggested I had drugs up my ass (not even embellishing here). Police can come looking for you for any reason they want. Hopefully innocent people are eventually vindicated (as I was), but it's definitely better to never be identified in the first place if you're an innocent.
    - spacemanmatt 4y ago
      > Sure, they'll come looking for you. Registration and titling of cars just makes that even worse, not better, for innocent people who lend out cars. Arguing against regular old accountability is not a good look.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        Arguing for 'accountability' against the innocent is not a good look. Particularly when those innocent are people who merely applied for a CCW and did nothing wrong.
        spacemanmatt 4y ago
        It's not 'accountability' it's accountability, and it's not against innocent people, it's on behalf of innocent people. Including other CCW applicants/holders. Seems like you are all the way down the rabbit hole on this one. Have a nice day.
        notch656a 4y ago
        Nothing says 'accountability' like picking one of the most law abiding groups (CCW holders, who are required to have on paper a relatively clean criminal background), and then releasing their private information regardless if they've committed or crime or even been suspected of one. I don't know if the reasoning here is the interest of public safety, but if it were that would be odd since on paper this group is less violent than the general population; people who have been pre-vetted not to have an unexpunged/unpardoned felony or record of domestic violence. Many of these people were victims of domestic violence and other harassers and abusers who very much don't want their location known publicly to these abusers, and got their CCW for protection from these abusers. Many were judges who have sent lots of angry people to jail. Taking a group, the vast majority of which have done nothing wrong, and wholesale holding them 'accountable' by releasing their private information is senseless and indefensible.
    - somehnguy 4y ago
- technothrasher 4y ago
  > out of state resident except for lawful sporting purposes Temporary use for lawful sporting purposes. I've taken that to mean I can let my out-of-state buddy try my rifle while we're at the range, or use it while on a hunting trip together. I would be pretty careful about lending out a gun to an out-of-state resident without being present the whole time they are using it, otherwise I'd be afraid of getting into a legal battle about whether it was temporary use.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    I'm not a lawyer but it's my understanding you never lose constructive possession if you are present with the firearm. For instance, you can take a firearm to an engraver to have it engraved while you wait, so long as you are present for the engraving operation it isn't considered a transfer. I'm unsure if 922 (a) (5) even applies in that case, but IANAL. I would be quite shocked if anyone was prosecuted under 18 U.S. Code § 922 (a) (5) for a firearm loaned exclusively for sporting purposes, but this is not legal advice. Personally I can think of at least one long-running skeet/trap range that will lend out shotguns for sporting purposes without any representative being anywhere near present while you use it, and they've been on the radar in plain sight doing this for decades across thousands of people (and they'll lend to any tom/dick/harry without any scrutiny).

notch656a 4y ago

I'm not aware of any federal law that makes it illegal to sell a car without registering it or titling it. I'm definitely not aware of any law that requires background check to buy or transfer a car (Dealership license may require it, but not private party transaction). In general if you have no reason to believe someone will commit a crime with your car, you typically can't be found criminally liable for merely loaning it out. With firearms, it's actually a federal crime to lend a firearm to an out of state resident except for lawful sporting purposes (not general purposes, like lawful self defense).

spacemanmatt 4y ago
> I'm not aware of any federal law that makes it illegal to sell a car without registering it or titling it if your car is involved in a crime, the cops will come looking for you. maybe you can beat a conviction but you might face an uphill battle even with an attorney. but sure, it's not illegal to sell a car without transferring the title, but neither is it considered a legal sale. that is still your car as long as the title is in your name.
- notch656a 4y ago
  >if your car is involved in a crime, the cops will come looking for you. Sure, they'll come looking for you. Registration and titling of cars just makes that even worse, not better, for innocent people who lend out cars. If that's your argument, that's one against having registration / serial numbers / record of transferring firearms. The police can also rake you over the coals for anything. I had a search warrant once served to me because a few corrupt DHS agents (CBP and HSI) fabricated a warrant that suggested I had drugs up my ass (not even embellishing here). Police can come looking for you for any reason they want. Hopefully innocent people are eventually vindicated (as I was), but it's definitely better to never be identified in the first place if you're an innocent.
  - spacemanmatt 4y ago
    > Sure, they'll come looking for you. Registration and titling of cars just makes that even worse, not better, for innocent people who lend out cars. Arguing against regular old accountability is not a good look.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      Arguing for 'accountability' against the innocent is not a good look. Particularly when those innocent are people who merely applied for a CCW and did nothing wrong.
      - spacemanmatt 4y ago
        It's not 'accountability' it's accountability, and it's not against innocent people, it's on behalf of innocent people. Including other CCW applicants/holders. Seems like you are all the way down the rabbit hole on this one. Have a nice day.
        notch656a 4y ago
        Nothing says 'accountability' like picking one of the most law abiding groups (CCW holders, who are required to have on paper a relatively clean criminal background), and then releasing their private information regardless if they've committed or crime or even been suspected of one. I don't know if the reasoning here is the interest of public safety, but if it were that would be odd since on paper this group is less violent than the general population; people who have been pre-vetted not to have an unexpunged/unpardoned felony or record of domestic violence. Many of these people were victims of domestic violence and other harassers and abusers who very much don't want their location known publicly to these abusers, and got their CCW for protection from these abusers. Many were judges who have sent lots of angry people to jail. Taking a group, the vast majority of which have done nothing wrong, and wholesale holding them 'accountable' by releasing their private information is senseless and indefensible.
  - somehnguy 4y ago
technothrasher 4y ago
> out of state resident except for lawful sporting purposes Temporary use for lawful sporting purposes. I've taken that to mean I can let my out-of-state buddy try my rifle while we're at the range, or use it while on a hunting trip together. I would be pretty careful about lending out a gun to an out-of-state resident without being present the whole time they are using it, otherwise I'd be afraid of getting into a legal battle about whether it was temporary use.
- notch656a 4y ago
  I'm not a lawyer but it's my understanding you never lose constructive possession if you are present with the firearm. For instance, you can take a firearm to an engraver to have it engraved while you wait, so long as you are present for the engraving operation it isn't considered a transfer. I'm unsure if 922 (a) (5) even applies in that case, but IANAL. I would be quite shocked if anyone was prosecuted under 18 U.S. Code § 922 (a) (5) for a firearm loaned exclusively for sporting purposes, but this is not legal advice. Personally I can think of at least one long-running skeet/trap range that will lend out shotguns for sporting purposes without any representative being anywhere near present while you use it, and they've been on the radar in plain sight doing this for decades across thousands of people (and they'll lend to any tom/dick/harry without any scrutiny).