11 ms·

It's not illegal to sell a gun to someone as a private citizen, so what are you talking about?

mgarfias 4y ago
depends on the state
refurb 4y ago
It’s illegal (federal) to fill out the purchase form and run a background check on your name if you are buying it for someone else.
- LMYahooTFY 4y ago
  The GP was stating that federal authorities aren't serious about stopping straw purchases. If I purchase for myself, and then sell it to someone else, when does that constitute a straw purchase?
  - robonerd 4y ago
    > If I purchase for myself If that is your earnest intent when you bought it, then ostensibly it would be legal. However... Laws aren't computer code; gray areas get hashed out in court. How often you've done this and the amount of time that passed between the purchase and sale would be considered, as well as any paper trail you might have left. Simply put, there is no firm answer to your question. Talk to a real lawyer if you think you're wading into a gray area like that.
    - jpindar 4y ago
      Or do the transfer via a licensed dealer. Most gun shops will do this for a small fee.
    - LMYahooTFY 4y ago
      > Laws aren't computer code; gray areas get hashed out in court. How often you've done this and the amount of time that passed between the purchase and sale would be considered, as well as any paper trail you might have left. Simply put, there is no firm answer to your question. Talk to a real lawyer if you think you're wading into a gray area like that. Exactly. My point was that GP skipped straight over the fact that this is significantly difficult to prosecute, and stated with no evidence that the federal authorities must "not be serious" about it.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  True, but the ability to privately sell firearms creates plausible deniability for a lot of straw purchases. A seller could have claimed to lawfully sold it to some other resident in a state with no background checks. If the gun ended up in a criminal's hands it must have been that person who sold it, or maybe a whole bunch of intermediate buyers.
  - tpmoney 4y ago
    All transfer across state lines must go through an FFL and a NICS check by law. The only sale/transfer allowed without a NICS check is between two residents of the same state when the seller has no reason to believe or suspect that the purchaser is prohibited. Realistically that leaves a very narrow window of purchases that are unlawful but the seller has plausible deniability.
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
      > The only sale/transfer allowed without a NICS check is between two residents of the same state when the seller has no reason to believe or suspect that the purchaser is prohibited. Say the seller transfers a gun they've owned for several years to an out-of-state prohibited person. The gun turns up in crime. The original purchases lies and says they sold it just one year after ownership to an in-state person, and haven't possessed this gun for several years. There's no requirement for sellers to keep record of who they sold firearms to, so it's hard to prove this defense wrong.
  - chmod600 4y ago
    The jury isn't just there to protect you. It's also there to send you away when you are obviously trying to hack the system. "Oh, gee, I just bought the gun on Tuesday and sold it on Thursday for no particular reason. It just happens that the gun appreciated by 20% during that time and my friend really didn't want to spend so much gas getting all the way to the gun store anyway. Who would have guessed such a fine person would be a felon? Same for the other 14 counts."
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
- robonerd 4y ago
  Buying a gun for somebody else is legal if it's a gift. But if it's a "gift" in exchange for some favor or service, that doesn't count. No quid pro quo.
collegeburner 4y ago
Buying with the intent of selling to somebody else is extremely illegal and taken very seriously. Go to your LGS you will almost certainly see a sign or notice warning it.
- Kon-Peki 4y ago
  No, it's not: https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/4/15/23025545/atf-gun-dealers-chucks-gun-shop-blythes-sport-westforth-alcohol-tobacco-firearms-david-chipman https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/4/15/23025545/atf-gun-deal...
  - kayfox 4y ago
    It is, lying on a federal form, its this question on the 4473: 21.a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) (ATF Form 5300.9A)? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. If you answer No to this question, the transfer cannot continue. Cite: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-trans...
    - GauntletWizard 4y ago
      There is an actual difference and legal difference between "Buying on behalf of someone else" and "Buying for the intent of resale". The latter may not (or may!) know the identity of the eventual owner in advance. Buying guns as a speculative investment is worthwhile. It is totally legal to know that "This collector/prop house is looking for $RAREGUN and will pay me $12k for it", find it and buy it for $10k, and purchase it. You know your buyer, you may even have gotten an explicit solicitation for the item in question, but the unsurety of when the second sale will be made (even if you're very confident of it) makes it not a straw purchase.
      - 4y ago
chiph 4y ago
A straw purchase is when a gun is bought for someone who is not allowed to own one (a "prohibited person"). Commonly, one person supplies the money for the gun, while the person with a clean criminal history is the one who fills out the background-check form. Straw purchases can happen if you are selling privately too. You should take a few steps to make sure the buyer is legit. Ask to see a concealed carry permit or FOID card. Or ask for a driver's license, and put the info down on a bill of sale that you then both sign. Keep the bill of sale forever, in case the gun should ever be stolen or used in a crime - it can help get the gun back to the new owner if the ATF does a trace.
- Syonyk 4y ago
  > You should take a few steps to make sure the buyer is legit. Ask to see a concealed carry permit or FOID card. I've known people who buy and sell quite a few guns, and even though there was no legal requirement for them to do so, this was their policy. Show them a matching permit to acquire or carry permit and driver's license, or they wouldn't sell a gun. Nothing was written down, but if you weren't willing to show matching paperwork and an ID, they wouldn't sell it to you. And I think in a few cases, if the buyer was being unusually squirrely and evasive, they didn't even get that far. Very, very few gun owners have any desire to sell guns to prohibited persons.
  - R0b0t1 4y ago
    It's a bad idea to check ID. If you check and get it wrong it may conceivably be used against you. The law does not require you to check and you should never check. Simply refuse to sell if they plainly state they are a felon or not a state resident and sell with no questions in every other case.
    - Syonyk 4y ago
      I find it hard to believe that one would be in more legal hot water for having checked as a matter of policy and having missed a high quality fake ID or something, than for not having checked at all. I know an awful lot of gun owners, and I can't think of one who would sell a gun to someone they suspected wasn't permitted to own one.

depends on the state

It’s illegal (federal) to fill out the purchase form and run a background check on your name if you are buying it for someone else.

LMYahooTFY 4y ago
The GP was stating that federal authorities aren't serious about stopping straw purchases. If I purchase for myself, and then sell it to someone else, when does that constitute a straw purchase?
- robonerd 4y ago
  > If I purchase for myself If that is your earnest intent when you bought it, then ostensibly it would be legal. However... Laws aren't computer code; gray areas get hashed out in court. How often you've done this and the amount of time that passed between the purchase and sale would be considered, as well as any paper trail you might have left. Simply put, there is no firm answer to your question. Talk to a real lawyer if you think you're wading into a gray area like that.
  - jpindar 4y ago
    Or do the transfer via a licensed dealer. Most gun shops will do this for a small fee.
  - LMYahooTFY 4y ago
    > Laws aren't computer code; gray areas get hashed out in court. How often you've done this and the amount of time that passed between the purchase and sale would be considered, as well as any paper trail you might have left. Simply put, there is no firm answer to your question. Talk to a real lawyer if you think you're wading into a gray area like that. Exactly. My point was that GP skipped straight over the fact that this is significantly difficult to prosecute, and stated with no evidence that the federal authorities must "not be serious" about it.
Manuel_D 4y ago
True, but the ability to privately sell firearms creates plausible deniability for a lot of straw purchases. A seller could have claimed to lawfully sold it to some other resident in a state with no background checks. If the gun ended up in a criminal's hands it must have been that person who sold it, or maybe a whole bunch of intermediate buyers.
- tpmoney 4y ago
  All transfer across state lines must go through an FFL and a NICS check by law. The only sale/transfer allowed without a NICS check is between two residents of the same state when the seller has no reason to believe or suspect that the purchaser is prohibited. Realistically that leaves a very narrow window of purchases that are unlawful but the seller has plausible deniability.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    > The only sale/transfer allowed without a NICS check is between two residents of the same state when the seller has no reason to believe or suspect that the purchaser is prohibited. Say the seller transfers a gun they've owned for several years to an out-of-state prohibited person. The gun turns up in crime. The original purchases lies and says they sold it just one year after ownership to an in-state person, and haven't possessed this gun for several years. There's no requirement for sellers to keep record of who they sold firearms to, so it's hard to prove this defense wrong.
- chmod600 4y ago
  The jury isn't just there to protect you. It's also there to send you away when you are obviously trying to hack the system. "Oh, gee, I just bought the gun on Tuesday and sold it on Thursday for no particular reason. It just happens that the gun appreciated by 20% during that time and my friend really didn't want to spend so much gas getting all the way to the gun store anyway. Who would have guessed such a fine person would be a felon? Same for the other 14 counts."
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
robonerd 4y ago
Buying a gun for somebody else is legal if it's a gift. But if it's a "gift" in exchange for some favor or service, that doesn't count. No quid pro quo.

collegeburner 4y ago

Buying with the intent of selling to somebody else is extremely illegal and taken very seriously. Go to your LGS you will almost certainly see a sign or notice warning it.

Kon-Peki 4y ago
No, it's not: https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/4/15/23025545/atf-gun-dealers-chucks-gun-shop-blythes-sport-westforth-alcohol-tobacco-firearms-david-chipman https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/4/15/23025545/atf-gun-deal...
- kayfox 4y ago
  It is, lying on a federal form, its this question on the 4473: 21.a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) (ATF Form 5300.9A)? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. If you answer No to this question, the transfer cannot continue. Cite: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-trans...
  - GauntletWizard 4y ago
    There is an actual difference and legal difference between "Buying on behalf of someone else" and "Buying for the intent of resale". The latter may not (or may!) know the identity of the eventual owner in advance. Buying guns as a speculative investment is worthwhile. It is totally legal to know that "This collector/prop house is looking for $RAREGUN and will pay me $12k for it", find it and buy it for $10k, and purchase it. You know your buyer, you may even have gotten an explicit solicitation for the item in question, but the unsurety of when the second sale will be made (even if you're very confident of it) makes it not a straw purchase.
    - 4y ago

chiph 4y ago

A straw purchase is when a gun is bought for someone who is not allowed to own one (a "prohibited person"). Commonly, one person supplies the money for the gun, while the person with a clean criminal history is the one who fills out the background-check form. Straw purchases can happen if you are selling privately too. You should take a few steps to make sure the buyer is legit. Ask to see a concealed carry permit or FOID card. Or ask for a driver's license, and put the info down on a bill of sale that you then both sign. Keep the bill of sale forever, in case the gun should ever be stolen or used in a crime - it can help get the gun back to the new owner if the ATF does a trace.

Syonyk 4y ago
> You should take a few steps to make sure the buyer is legit. Ask to see a concealed carry permit or FOID card. I've known people who buy and sell quite a few guns, and even though there was no legal requirement for them to do so, this was their policy. Show them a matching permit to acquire or carry permit and driver's license, or they wouldn't sell a gun. Nothing was written down, but if you weren't willing to show matching paperwork and an ID, they wouldn't sell it to you. And I think in a few cases, if the buyer was being unusually squirrely and evasive, they didn't even get that far. Very, very few gun owners have any desire to sell guns to prohibited persons.
- R0b0t1 4y ago
  It's a bad idea to check ID. If you check and get it wrong it may conceivably be used against you. The law does not require you to check and you should never check. Simply refuse to sell if they plainly state they are a felon or not a state resident and sell with no questions in every other case.
  - Syonyk 4y ago
    I find it hard to believe that one would be in more legal hot water for having checked as a matter of policy and having missed a high quality fake ID or something, than for not having checked at all. I know an awful lot of gun owners, and I can't think of one who would sell a gun to someone they suspected wasn't permitted to own one.