8 ms·

Straw purchases... when someone else purchases a gun for you. Illegal in every state, and federally. Please search the FBI and ATF online data for people arr

Straw purchases... when someone else purchases a gun for you. Illegal in every state, and federally. Please search the FBI and ATF online data for people arrested and or convicted of straw purchases. Then tell me how serious they are about stopping it.

LMYahooTFY 4y ago
It's not illegal to sell a gun to someone as a private citizen, so what are you talking about?
- mgarfias 4y ago
  depends on the state
- refurb 4y ago
  It’s illegal (federal) to fill out the purchase form and run a background check on your name if you are buying it for someone else.
  - LMYahooTFY 4y ago
    The GP was stating that federal authorities aren't serious about stopping straw purchases. If I purchase for myself, and then sell it to someone else, when does that constitute a straw purchase?
    - robonerd 4y ago
      > If I purchase for myself If that is your earnest intent when you bought it, then ostensibly it would be legal. However... Laws aren't computer code; gray areas get hashed out in court. How often you've done this and the amount of time that passed between the purchase and sale would be considered, as well as any paper trail you might have left. Simply put, there is no firm answer to your question. Talk to a real lawyer if you think you're wading into a gray area like that.
      - jpindar 4y ago
        Or do the transfer via a licensed dealer. Most gun shops will do this for a small fee.
      - LMYahooTFY 4y ago
        > Laws aren't computer code; gray areas get hashed out in court. How often you've done this and the amount of time that passed between the purchase and sale would be considered, as well as any paper trail you might have left. Simply put, there is no firm answer to your question. Talk to a real lawyer if you think you're wading into a gray area like that. Exactly. My point was that GP skipped straight over the fact that this is significantly difficult to prosecute, and stated with no evidence that the federal authorities must "not be serious" about it.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    True, but the ability to privately sell firearms creates plausible deniability for a lot of straw purchases. A seller could have claimed to lawfully sold it to some other resident in a state with no background checks. If the gun ended up in a criminal's hands it must have been that person who sold it, or maybe a whole bunch of intermediate buyers.
    - tpmoney 4y ago
      All transfer across state lines must go through an FFL and a NICS check by law. The only sale/transfer allowed without a NICS check is between two residents of the same state when the seller has no reason to believe or suspect that the purchaser is prohibited. Realistically that leaves a very narrow window of purchases that are unlawful but the seller has plausible deniability.
      - Manuel_D 4y ago
        > The only sale/transfer allowed without a NICS check is between two residents of the same state when the seller has no reason to believe or suspect that the purchaser is prohibited. Say the seller transfers a gun they've owned for several years to an out-of-state prohibited person. The gun turns up in crime. The original purchases lies and says they sold it just one year after ownership to an in-state person, and haven't possessed this gun for several years. There's no requirement for sellers to keep record of who they sold firearms to, so it's hard to prove this defense wrong.
    - chmod600 4y ago
      The jury isn't just there to protect you. It's also there to send you away when you are obviously trying to hack the system. "Oh, gee, I just bought the gun on Tuesday and sold it on Thursday for no particular reason. It just happens that the gun appreciated by 20% during that time and my friend really didn't want to spend so much gas getting all the way to the gun store anyway. Who would have guessed such a fine person would be a felon? Same for the other 14 counts."
      - Manuel_D 4y ago
  - robonerd 4y ago
    Buying a gun for somebody else is legal if it's a gift. But if it's a "gift" in exchange for some favor or service, that doesn't count. No quid pro quo.
- collegeburner 4y ago
  Buying with the intent of selling to somebody else is extremely illegal and taken very seriously. Go to your LGS you will almost certainly see a sign or notice warning it.
  - Kon-Peki 4y ago
    No, it's not: https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/4/15/23025545/atf-gun-dealers-chucks-gun-shop-blythes-sport-westforth-alcohol-tobacco-firearms-david-chipman https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/4/15/23025545/atf-gun-deal...
    - kayfox 4y ago
      It is, lying on a federal form, its this question on the 4473: 21.a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) (ATF Form 5300.9A)? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. If you answer No to this question, the transfer cannot continue. Cite: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-trans...
      - GauntletWizard 4y ago
        There is an actual difference and legal difference between "Buying on behalf of someone else" and "Buying for the intent of resale". The latter may not (or may!) know the identity of the eventual owner in advance. Buying guns as a speculative investment is worthwhile. It is totally legal to know that "This collector/prop house is looking for $RAREGUN and will pay me $12k for it", find it and buy it for $10k, and purchase it. You know your buyer, you may even have gotten an explicit solicitation for the item in question, but the unsurety of when the second sale will be made (even if you're very confident of it) makes it not a straw purchase.
        4y ago
- chiph 4y ago
  A straw purchase is when a gun is bought for someone who is not allowed to own one (a "prohibited person"). Commonly, one person supplies the money for the gun, while the person with a clean criminal history is the one who fills out the background-check form. Straw purchases can happen if you are selling privately too. You should take a few steps to make sure the buyer is legit. Ask to see a concealed carry permit or FOID card. Or ask for a driver's license, and put the info down on a bill of sale that you then both sign. Keep the bill of sale forever, in case the gun should ever be stolen or used in a crime - it can help get the gun back to the new owner if the ATF does a trace.
  - Syonyk 4y ago
    > You should take a few steps to make sure the buyer is legit. Ask to see a concealed carry permit or FOID card. I've known people who buy and sell quite a few guns, and even though there was no legal requirement for them to do so, this was their policy. Show them a matching permit to acquire or carry permit and driver's license, or they wouldn't sell a gun. Nothing was written down, but if you weren't willing to show matching paperwork and an ID, they wouldn't sell it to you. And I think in a few cases, if the buyer was being unusually squirrely and evasive, they didn't even get that far. Very, very few gun owners have any desire to sell guns to prohibited persons.
    - R0b0t1 4y ago
      It's a bad idea to check ID. If you check and get it wrong it may conceivably be used against you. The law does not require you to check and you should never check. Simply refuse to sell if they plainly state they are a felon or not a state resident and sell with no questions in every other case.
      - Syonyk 4y ago
        I find it hard to believe that one would be in more legal hot water for having checked as a matter of policy and having missed a high quality fake ID or something, than for not having checked at all. I know an awful lot of gun owners, and I can't think of one who would sell a gun to someone they suspected wasn't permitted to own one.
eikenberry 4y ago
I'm curious about how they differentiate between guns bought as gifts vs straw purchases? I'd guess it would be intent but it's hard to google for.
- failTide 4y ago
  A gift would still follow the state's laws on firearms transfers and eligibility, which can involve various forms and middlemen. With a straw purchase you're just handing the gun to someone else. It's more of a gray area when it's an intrafamilial transfer.
  - R0b0t1 4y ago
    It's a thoughtcrime and a terrible law because of it. There's a ton of these w.r.t. gun laws in the US. Say the wrong thing and you get ten, say something slightly different and you get zero.
    - maxerickson 4y ago
      We examine intent for homicide too.
  - throwaway5752 4y ago
    It isn't. Unless someone was operating a crazy and expensive free guns charity, you are not "handing the gun to someone else". You are _reselling_ the gun to someone else who could not legally purchase or is avoiding a paper trail in order to commit a crime.
    - failTide 4y ago
      I didn't mean to imply that there wouldn't be a payment - although it's not always the case.
    - bmelton 4y ago
      Sometimes that's even a crime without the inability to legally purchase or avoid a paper trail - just lying about the recipient and engaging in a private sale can be criminal even if both parties are eligible for the firearm purchase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States
chmod600 4y ago
It really puzzles me why existing gun laws that everyone agrees on aren't enforced. How are there so many repeat offenders that are violent with guns? It seems to be some kind of trend to make guns a white-collar crime or something. Like, if you don't file the right paperwork before loaning someone a pistol at the range, then it's a crime; but if you mug someone its the gun's fault.
- duped 4y ago
  Because Republicans refuse to fund or empower any law enforcement agency to enforce the law or study how well they're enforcing it and the impacts of it, at least at the federal level. The gun problem is synonymous with the Republican problem.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    I'm an independent, I've only ever voted for Democratic candidates, etc. Because blaming Republicans is just a canned argument at this point, can you unpack the mechanism a bit more? Are Democrats trying really hard to fund ATF, FBI, etc and Republicans are blocking it? Can you substantiate this claim with examples? I don't necessarily doubt it, but without substance this just reads like vapid flamebait.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      All they'd have to do is fund the prosecutors since they currently only prosecute like 3% of the known gun crimes federally. Semi-sarcastically, defunding the ATF might actually help (see Ruby Ridge, Waco, walking guns at the border, full autos stolen from ATF agents, etc). If you know anyone who has worked with federal LE, ATF and DEA will typically show up at the top of their "cowboy" list.
  - chmod600 4y ago
    How do Republicans take the blame for Chicago or other revolving-door blue jurisdictions?
  - braincat31415 4y ago
andrew_ 4y ago
>Straw purchases... when someone else purchases a gun for you. Illegal in every state, and federally. Nuance is required. In Florida, for example, it's legal for person to person private sale of firearms. There are restrictions that you're legally obligated to follow. Pulled this quick list from a search; https://www.pumphreylawfirm.com/blog/can-i-sell-a-gun-privately-in-florida/ https://www.pumphreylawfirm.com/blog/can-i-sell-a-gun-privat.... "Straw purchases" then means there has to be intent to provide it to someone free of charge (hard to prove) in addition to providing the firearm to someone for which it is illegal for them to own one. Otherwise it's merely a private sale.
- technothrasher 4y ago
  > "Straw purchases" then means there has to be intent to provide it to someone free of charge This isn't a very good definition of a straw purchase. Buying a gun as a gift for someone is legal (federally, at least) and usually not considered a straw purchase. It's a straw purchase if you aren't the actual buyer, but are acting as an agent for somebody else, whether or not they could have bought the gun themselves legally, and whether or not money changes hands. It is, of course, up to the prosecution to prove you were acting as an agent rather than gifting, or buying for yourself and then later deciding to resell.
  - andrew_ 4y ago
    Why did you snip "in addition to..." from the quote and argue to the least important and hardest to prove part? The meat is in the rest of the sentence.
    - throwaway81523 4y ago
      You started defining what a straw purchase was, your definition was completely wrong, and technothrasher explained your error.
      - andrew_ 4y ago
        That's incorrect. The statement was only true under both conditions. The user chose to chop one half off to argue the whole. If you have citable evidence to the contrary, please provide. The link I provided cited actual Florida and Federal law.
Consultant32452 4y ago
To buy a gun legally you have to pass the NICS background check through the ATF. People who legally cannot own guns attempt to buy them and fail the NICS all the time. Felons, violent criminals, etc. Attorneys general don't find it valuable to go after these people.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

LMYahooTFY 4y ago

It's not illegal to sell a gun to someone as a private citizen, so what are you talking about?

mgarfias 4y ago
depends on the state
refurb 4y ago
It’s illegal (federal) to fill out the purchase form and run a background check on your name if you are buying it for someone else.
- LMYahooTFY 4y ago
  The GP was stating that federal authorities aren't serious about stopping straw purchases. If I purchase for myself, and then sell it to someone else, when does that constitute a straw purchase?
  - robonerd 4y ago
    > If I purchase for myself If that is your earnest intent when you bought it, then ostensibly it would be legal. However... Laws aren't computer code; gray areas get hashed out in court. How often you've done this and the amount of time that passed between the purchase and sale would be considered, as well as any paper trail you might have left. Simply put, there is no firm answer to your question. Talk to a real lawyer if you think you're wading into a gray area like that.
    - jpindar 4y ago
      Or do the transfer via a licensed dealer. Most gun shops will do this for a small fee.
    - LMYahooTFY 4y ago
      > Laws aren't computer code; gray areas get hashed out in court. How often you've done this and the amount of time that passed between the purchase and sale would be considered, as well as any paper trail you might have left. Simply put, there is no firm answer to your question. Talk to a real lawyer if you think you're wading into a gray area like that. Exactly. My point was that GP skipped straight over the fact that this is significantly difficult to prosecute, and stated with no evidence that the federal authorities must "not be serious" about it.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  True, but the ability to privately sell firearms creates plausible deniability for a lot of straw purchases. A seller could have claimed to lawfully sold it to some other resident in a state with no background checks. If the gun ended up in a criminal's hands it must have been that person who sold it, or maybe a whole bunch of intermediate buyers.
  - tpmoney 4y ago
    All transfer across state lines must go through an FFL and a NICS check by law. The only sale/transfer allowed without a NICS check is between two residents of the same state when the seller has no reason to believe or suspect that the purchaser is prohibited. Realistically that leaves a very narrow window of purchases that are unlawful but the seller has plausible deniability.
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
      > The only sale/transfer allowed without a NICS check is between two residents of the same state when the seller has no reason to believe or suspect that the purchaser is prohibited. Say the seller transfers a gun they've owned for several years to an out-of-state prohibited person. The gun turns up in crime. The original purchases lies and says they sold it just one year after ownership to an in-state person, and haven't possessed this gun for several years. There's no requirement for sellers to keep record of who they sold firearms to, so it's hard to prove this defense wrong.
  - chmod600 4y ago
    The jury isn't just there to protect you. It's also there to send you away when you are obviously trying to hack the system. "Oh, gee, I just bought the gun on Tuesday and sold it on Thursday for no particular reason. It just happens that the gun appreciated by 20% during that time and my friend really didn't want to spend so much gas getting all the way to the gun store anyway. Who would have guessed such a fine person would be a felon? Same for the other 14 counts."
    - Manuel_D 4y ago
- robonerd 4y ago
  Buying a gun for somebody else is legal if it's a gift. But if it's a "gift" in exchange for some favor or service, that doesn't count. No quid pro quo.
collegeburner 4y ago
Buying with the intent of selling to somebody else is extremely illegal and taken very seriously. Go to your LGS you will almost certainly see a sign or notice warning it.
- Kon-Peki 4y ago
  No, it's not: https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/4/15/23025545/atf-gun-dealers-chucks-gun-shop-blythes-sport-westforth-alcohol-tobacco-firearms-david-chipman https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/4/15/23025545/atf-gun-deal...
  - kayfox 4y ago
    It is, lying on a federal form, its this question on the 4473: 21.a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) (ATF Form 5300.9A)? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. If you answer No to this question, the transfer cannot continue. Cite: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-trans...
    - GauntletWizard 4y ago
      There is an actual difference and legal difference between "Buying on behalf of someone else" and "Buying for the intent of resale". The latter may not (or may!) know the identity of the eventual owner in advance. Buying guns as a speculative investment is worthwhile. It is totally legal to know that "This collector/prop house is looking for $RAREGUN and will pay me $12k for it", find it and buy it for $10k, and purchase it. You know your buyer, you may even have gotten an explicit solicitation for the item in question, but the unsurety of when the second sale will be made (even if you're very confident of it) makes it not a straw purchase.
      - 4y ago
chiph 4y ago
A straw purchase is when a gun is bought for someone who is not allowed to own one (a "prohibited person"). Commonly, one person supplies the money for the gun, while the person with a clean criminal history is the one who fills out the background-check form. Straw purchases can happen if you are selling privately too. You should take a few steps to make sure the buyer is legit. Ask to see a concealed carry permit or FOID card. Or ask for a driver's license, and put the info down on a bill of sale that you then both sign. Keep the bill of sale forever, in case the gun should ever be stolen or used in a crime - it can help get the gun back to the new owner if the ATF does a trace.
- Syonyk 4y ago
  > You should take a few steps to make sure the buyer is legit. Ask to see a concealed carry permit or FOID card. I've known people who buy and sell quite a few guns, and even though there was no legal requirement for them to do so, this was their policy. Show them a matching permit to acquire or carry permit and driver's license, or they wouldn't sell a gun. Nothing was written down, but if you weren't willing to show matching paperwork and an ID, they wouldn't sell it to you. And I think in a few cases, if the buyer was being unusually squirrely and evasive, they didn't even get that far. Very, very few gun owners have any desire to sell guns to prohibited persons.
  - R0b0t1 4y ago
    It's a bad idea to check ID. If you check and get it wrong it may conceivably be used against you. The law does not require you to check and you should never check. Simply refuse to sell if they plainly state they are a felon or not a state resident and sell with no questions in every other case.
    - Syonyk 4y ago
      I find it hard to believe that one would be in more legal hot water for having checked as a matter of policy and having missed a high quality fake ID or something, than for not having checked at all. I know an awful lot of gun owners, and I can't think of one who would sell a gun to someone they suspected wasn't permitted to own one.

eikenberry 4y ago

I'm curious about how they differentiate between guns bought as gifts vs straw purchases? I'd guess it would be intent but it's hard to google for.

failTide 4y ago
A gift would still follow the state's laws on firearms transfers and eligibility, which can involve various forms and middlemen. With a straw purchase you're just handing the gun to someone else. It's more of a gray area when it's an intrafamilial transfer.
- R0b0t1 4y ago
  It's a thoughtcrime and a terrible law because of it. There's a ton of these w.r.t. gun laws in the US. Say the wrong thing and you get ten, say something slightly different and you get zero.
  - maxerickson 4y ago
    We examine intent for homicide too.
- throwaway5752 4y ago
  It isn't. Unless someone was operating a crazy and expensive free guns charity, you are not "handing the gun to someone else". You are _reselling_ the gun to someone else who could not legally purchase or is avoiding a paper trail in order to commit a crime.
  - failTide 4y ago
    I didn't mean to imply that there wouldn't be a payment - although it's not always the case.
  - bmelton 4y ago
    Sometimes that's even a crime without the inability to legally purchase or avoid a paper trail - just lying about the recipient and engaging in a private sale can be criminal even if both parties are eligible for the firearm purchase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States

chmod600 4y ago

It really puzzles me why existing gun laws that everyone agrees on aren't enforced. How are there so many repeat offenders that are violent with guns? It seems to be some kind of trend to make guns a white-collar crime or something. Like, if you don't file the right paperwork before loaning someone a pistol at the range, then it's a crime; but if you mug someone its the gun's fault.

duped 4y ago
Because Republicans refuse to fund or empower any law enforcement agency to enforce the law or study how well they're enforcing it and the impacts of it, at least at the federal level. The gun problem is synonymous with the Republican problem.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  I'm an independent, I've only ever voted for Democratic candidates, etc. Because blaming Republicans is just a canned argument at this point, can you unpack the mechanism a bit more? Are Democrats trying really hard to fund ATF, FBI, etc and Republicans are blocking it? Can you substantiate this claim with examples? I don't necessarily doubt it, but without substance this just reads like vapid flamebait.
  - giantg2 4y ago
    All they'd have to do is fund the prosecutors since they currently only prosecute like 3% of the known gun crimes federally. Semi-sarcastically, defunding the ATF might actually help (see Ruby Ridge, Waco, walking guns at the border, full autos stolen from ATF agents, etc). If you know anyone who has worked with federal LE, ATF and DEA will typically show up at the top of their "cowboy" list.
- chmod600 4y ago
  How do Republicans take the blame for Chicago or other revolving-door blue jurisdictions?
- braincat31415 4y ago

andrew_ 4y ago

>Straw purchases... when someone else purchases a gun for you. Illegal in every state, and federally. Nuance is required. In Florida, for example, it's legal for person to person private sale of firearms. There are restrictions that you're legally obligated to follow. Pulled this quick list from a search; https://www.pumphreylawfirm.com/blog/can-i-sell-a-gun-privately-in-florida/ https://www.pumphreylawfirm.com/blog/can-i-sell-a-gun-privat.... "Straw purchases" then means there has to be intent to provide it to someone free of charge (hard to prove) in addition to providing the firearm to someone for which it is illegal for them to own one. Otherwise it's merely a private sale.

technothrasher 4y ago
> "Straw purchases" then means there has to be intent to provide it to someone free of charge This isn't a very good definition of a straw purchase. Buying a gun as a gift for someone is legal (federally, at least) and usually not considered a straw purchase. It's a straw purchase if you aren't the actual buyer, but are acting as an agent for somebody else, whether or not they could have bought the gun themselves legally, and whether or not money changes hands. It is, of course, up to the prosecution to prove you were acting as an agent rather than gifting, or buying for yourself and then later deciding to resell.
- andrew_ 4y ago
  Why did you snip "in addition to..." from the quote and argue to the least important and hardest to prove part? The meat is in the rest of the sentence.
  - throwaway81523 4y ago
    You started defining what a straw purchase was, your definition was completely wrong, and technothrasher explained your error.
    - andrew_ 4y ago
      That's incorrect. The statement was only true under both conditions. The user chose to chop one half off to argue the whole. If you have citable evidence to the contrary, please provide. The link I provided cited actual Florida and Federal law.

Consultant32452 4y ago

To buy a gun legally you have to pass the NICS background check through the ATF. People who legally cannot own guns attempt to buy them and fail the NICS all the time. Felons, violent criminals, etc. Attorneys general don't find it valuable to go after these people.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]