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Most criminals get guns through straw purchases. This is still a big screw up, but overall, the best way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals is to better

Most criminals get guns through straw purchases. This is still a big screw up, but overall, the best way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals is to better regulate sales. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/g... > An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal. > In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales.

xbar 4y ago
This is irrelevant.
jaywalk 4y ago
Straw purchases are already illegal. There is no regulation that can actually stop it.
- mrunkel 4y ago
  So is stealing from people’s homes? I don’t get your point.
  - pc86 4y ago
    I think they're asking how regulating sales will prevent straw purchases when straw purchases are already illegal, so presumably additional regulation won't do anything more. If you're convicted of a straw purchase you won't be able to legally purchase anymore.
    - HideousKojima 4y ago
      And also the vast majority of straw purchases and lying on background check forms are not prosecuted in the first place, despite there being clear evidence for a slam dunk case. Hell, if you're the president's son you can lie on a 4473, have your girlfriend steal the gun and throw it in a dumpster, and then write a book about it and you won't get prosecuted.
      - throwaway81523 4y ago
        Zomg, I typed that info into duckduckgo and found this: https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/25/sources-secret-service-inserted-itself-into-case-of-hunter-bidens-gun-477879 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/25/sources-secret-serv... I hadn't heard about it before.
- ChrisLomont 4y ago
  >There is no regulation that can actually stop it. As a gun owner, sure there is. If your gun shows up in a crime, you get indicted as well. That would put a big dent in people being willing to buy guns for others. Also making sure there are no secondary sales without background checks, which is supported by (I think?) the majority of Americans would help. Repeat offenders at losing guns lose the right to any guns. All of these would stop repeat offenders, and if I recall, the majority of straw sales are repeat offenders knowing they don't get in much or any trouble buying guns this way.
  - HideousKojima 4y ago
    >Also making sure there are no secondary sales without background checks, which is supported by (I think?) the majority of Americans would help. It's only supported by the majority of Americans until you ask them about specific situations and policy implications. Instead of a generic "Do you support universal background checks?" question they should try asking "Should you have to perform a background check to loan a gun to your roommate to take to the range?" or "Should you have to perform a background check to loan a gun to your next door neighbor who is worried her violent stalker ex-boyfriend has figured out where she lives?" and you'll find much lower levels of support.
    - kelnos 4y ago
      That's a bit of a straw man. Even closing loopholes around private sales would improve the situation somewhat, and a majority of Americans definitely support that.
      - HideousKojima 4y ago
        >That's a bit of a straw man. Not at all, the current state-level bans on private sales only make exceptions for immediate family members and a few other specific groups/situations, they would make the behavior in my questions a felony. Here's Washington State's exceptions (note that c would not apply to my violent ex scenario because the violent ex would need to be actually present at the time of the transfer and threatening harm): (4) This section does not apply to: (a) A transfer between immediate family members, which for this subsection shall be limited to spouses, domestic partners, parents, parents-in-law, children, siblings, siblings-in-law, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles, that is a bona fide gift or loan; (b) The sale or transfer of an antique firearm; (c) A temporary transfer of possession of a firearm if such transfer is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to the person to whom the firearm is transferred if: (i) The temporary transfer only lasts as long as immediately necessary to prevent such imminent death or great bodily harm; and (ii) The person to whom the firearm is transferred is not prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law; (d) A temporary transfer of possession of a firearm if: (i) The transfer is intended to prevent suicide or self-inflicted great bodily harm; (ii) the transfer lasts only as long as reasonably necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm; and (iii) the firearm is not utilized by the transferee for any purpose for the duration of the temporary transfer; (e) Any law enforcement or corrections agency and, to the extent the person is acting within the course and scope of his or her employment or official duties, any law enforcement or corrections officer, United States marshal, member of the armed forces of the United States or the national guard, or federal official; (f) A federally licensed gunsmith who receives a firearm solely for the purposes of service or repair, or the return of the firearm to its owner by the federally licensed gunsmith; (g) The temporary transfer of a firearm (i) between spouses or domestic partners; (ii) if the temporary transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at an established shooting range authorized by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which such range is located; (iii) if the temporary transfer occurs and the transferee's possession of the firearm is exclusively at a lawful organized competition involving the use of a firearm, or while participating in or practicing for a performance by an organized group that uses firearms as a part of the performance; (iv) to a person who is under eighteen years of age for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes while under the direct supervision and control of a responsible adult who is not prohibited from possessing firearms; (v) under circumstances in which the transferee and the firearm remain in the presence of the transferor; or (vi) while hunting if the hunting is legal in all places where the person to whom the firearm is transferred possesses the firearm and the person to whom the firearm is transferred has completed all training and holds all licenses or permits required for such hunting, provided that any temporary transfer allowed by this subsection is permitted only if the person to whom the firearm is transferred is not prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law; (h) A person who (i) acquired a firearm other than a pistol by operation of law upon the death of the former owner of the firearm or (ii) acquired a pistol by operation of law upon the death of the former owner of the pistol within the preceding sixty days. At the end of the sixty-day period, the person must either have lawfully transferred the pistol or must have contacted the department of licensing to notify the department that he or she has possession of the pistol and intends to retain possession of the pistol, in compliance with all federal and state laws; or (i) A sale or transfer when the purchaser or transferee is a licensed collector and the firearm being sold or transferred is a curio or relic.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  Sure there is, you can't sell a gun without requesting a state background check, and if it turns out you did you're liable.
- King-Aaron 4y ago
  Unless you regulate the sale of guns better in general, like most other countries.
slowhand09 4y ago
Straw purchases... when someone else purchases a gun for you. Illegal in every state, and federally. Please search the FBI and ATF online data for people arrested and or convicted of straw purchases. Then tell me how serious they are about stopping it.
- LMYahooTFY 4y ago
  It's not illegal to sell a gun to someone as a private citizen, so what are you talking about?
  - mgarfias 4y ago
    depends on the state
  - refurb 4y ago
    It’s illegal (federal) to fill out the purchase form and run a background check on your name if you are buying it for someone else.
    - LMYahooTFY 4y ago
      The GP was stating that federal authorities aren't serious about stopping straw purchases. If I purchase for myself, and then sell it to someone else, when does that constitute a straw purchase?
      - robonerd 4y ago
        > If I purchase for myself If that is your earnest intent when you bought it, then ostensibly it would be legal. However... Laws aren't computer code; gray areas get hashed out in court. How often you've done this and the amount of time that passed between the purchase and sale would be considered, as well as any paper trail you might have left. Simply put, there is no firm answer to your question. Talk to a real lawyer if you think you're wading into a gray area like that.
mywittyname 4y ago
> "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Sounds like a BS statistic: what about all the crimes people got away with committing? How do they know the status of the guns used in those? The real answer is probably that stolen guns are probably used by more sophisticated criminals (i.e., the ones that elude the police). And straw purchases are used by the people who keep getting caught, hence the need for the straw purchase to begin with.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  Why? The sophisticated criminals will definitely use resales of straw purchases, that way they are in no risk in the actual purchase, and they can get any gun they like without having to rely on the luck of the draw.
turdit 4y ago
[flagged]
usrn 4y ago
10-15% is enough to be concerned IMO.
desmosxxx 4y ago
This is irrelevant. OP didn't say "most" and the primary concern is that it makes gun owners potential targets, which is true.
- foerbert 4y ago
  I disagree. It's a useful clarification. The OP didn't say "most" but neither did they say "some" or use any language to that effect. A naive reading could even take it as an implicit "all."
tomatotomato37 4y ago
That's how criminals get guns they actually intend to use. You're forgetting though that guns, like espresso machines and other machinery involving high pressures and tight tolerances, tend to be quite expensive, and their handheld nature makes them an extremely lucrative items to fence.
- bluedino 4y ago
  Sure, new guns are expensive. But some guns are pretty cheap. Keltecs, revolvers, shotguns.
Tozen 4y ago
You guys seem to also have missed the trick of people reporting their gun was "stolen", when in fact they may have illegally bought a weapon for someone else. So, was it "stolen" or a straw purchase? Then there is also the trick of buying from private sellers (private seller exemption), where a background check is needed or not gets even more murky (depends on state). This makes such situations even more fuzzy. Just one big (purposeful?) continual mess, that's not going to be fixed anytime soon, if ever.
giantg2 4y ago
This is highly misleading. Yes they purchased the guns, but where do you think those came from? Those black market guns include guns that were stolen by others. https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/suficspi16.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/suficspi16.pdf

xbar 4y ago

This is irrelevant.

jaywalk 4y ago

Straw purchases are already illegal. There is no regulation that can actually stop it.

mrunkel 4y ago
So is stealing from people’s homes? I don’t get your point.
- pc86 4y ago
  I think they're asking how regulating sales will prevent straw purchases when straw purchases are already illegal, so presumably additional regulation won't do anything more. If you're convicted of a straw purchase you won't be able to legally purchase anymore.
  - HideousKojima 4y ago
    And also the vast majority of straw purchases and lying on background check forms are not prosecuted in the first place, despite there being clear evidence for a slam dunk case. Hell, if you're the president's son you can lie on a 4473, have your girlfriend steal the gun and throw it in a dumpster, and then write a book about it and you won't get prosecuted.
    - throwaway81523 4y ago
      Zomg, I typed that info into duckduckgo and found this: https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/25/sources-secret-service-inserted-itself-into-case-of-hunter-bidens-gun-477879 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/25/sources-secret-serv... I hadn't heard about it before.
ChrisLomont 4y ago
>There is no regulation that can actually stop it. As a gun owner, sure there is. If your gun shows up in a crime, you get indicted as well. That would put a big dent in people being willing to buy guns for others. Also making sure there are no secondary sales without background checks, which is supported by (I think?) the majority of Americans would help. Repeat offenders at losing guns lose the right to any guns. All of these would stop repeat offenders, and if I recall, the majority of straw sales are repeat offenders knowing they don't get in much or any trouble buying guns this way.
- HideousKojima 4y ago
  >Also making sure there are no secondary sales without background checks, which is supported by (I think?) the majority of Americans would help. It's only supported by the majority of Americans until you ask them about specific situations and policy implications. Instead of a generic "Do you support universal background checks?" question they should try asking "Should you have to perform a background check to loan a gun to your roommate to take to the range?" or "Should you have to perform a background check to loan a gun to your next door neighbor who is worried her violent stalker ex-boyfriend has figured out where she lives?" and you'll find much lower levels of support.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    That's a bit of a straw man. Even closing loopholes around private sales would improve the situation somewhat, and a majority of Americans definitely support that.
    - HideousKojima 4y ago
      >That's a bit of a straw man. Not at all, the current state-level bans on private sales only make exceptions for immediate family members and a few other specific groups/situations, they would make the behavior in my questions a felony. Here's Washington State's exceptions (note that c would not apply to my violent ex scenario because the violent ex would need to be actually present at the time of the transfer and threatening harm): (4) This section does not apply to: (a) A transfer between immediate family members, which for this subsection shall be limited to spouses, domestic partners, parents, parents-in-law, children, siblings, siblings-in-law, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles, that is a bona fide gift or loan; (b) The sale or transfer of an antique firearm; (c) A temporary transfer of possession of a firearm if such transfer is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to the person to whom the firearm is transferred if: (i) The temporary transfer only lasts as long as immediately necessary to prevent such imminent death or great bodily harm; and (ii) The person to whom the firearm is transferred is not prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law; (d) A temporary transfer of possession of a firearm if: (i) The transfer is intended to prevent suicide or self-inflicted great bodily harm; (ii) the transfer lasts only as long as reasonably necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm; and (iii) the firearm is not utilized by the transferee for any purpose for the duration of the temporary transfer; (e) Any law enforcement or corrections agency and, to the extent the person is acting within the course and scope of his or her employment or official duties, any law enforcement or corrections officer, United States marshal, member of the armed forces of the United States or the national guard, or federal official; (f) A federally licensed gunsmith who receives a firearm solely for the purposes of service or repair, or the return of the firearm to its owner by the federally licensed gunsmith; (g) The temporary transfer of a firearm (i) between spouses or domestic partners; (ii) if the temporary transfer occurs, and the firearm is kept at all times, at an established shooting range authorized by the governing body of the jurisdiction in which such range is located; (iii) if the temporary transfer occurs and the transferee's possession of the firearm is exclusively at a lawful organized competition involving the use of a firearm, or while participating in or practicing for a performance by an organized group that uses firearms as a part of the performance; (iv) to a person who is under eighteen years of age for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes while under the direct supervision and control of a responsible adult who is not prohibited from possessing firearms; (v) under circumstances in which the transferee and the firearm remain in the presence of the transferor; or (vi) while hunting if the hunting is legal in all places where the person to whom the firearm is transferred possesses the firearm and the person to whom the firearm is transferred has completed all training and holds all licenses or permits required for such hunting, provided that any temporary transfer allowed by this subsection is permitted only if the person to whom the firearm is transferred is not prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law; (h) A person who (i) acquired a firearm other than a pistol by operation of law upon the death of the former owner of the firearm or (ii) acquired a pistol by operation of law upon the death of the former owner of the pistol within the preceding sixty days. At the end of the sixty-day period, the person must either have lawfully transferred the pistol or must have contacted the department of licensing to notify the department that he or she has possession of the pistol and intends to retain possession of the pistol, in compliance with all federal and state laws; or (i) A sale or transfer when the purchaser or transferee is a licensed collector and the firearm being sold or transferred is a curio or relic.
sudosysgen 4y ago
Sure there is, you can't sell a gun without requesting a state background check, and if it turns out you did you're liable.
King-Aaron 4y ago
Unless you regulate the sale of guns better in general, like most other countries.

slowhand09 4y ago

Straw purchases... when someone else purchases a gun for you. Illegal in every state, and federally. Please search the FBI and ATF online data for people arrested and or convicted of straw purchases. Then tell me how serious they are about stopping it.

LMYahooTFY 4y ago
It's not illegal to sell a gun to someone as a private citizen, so what are you talking about?
- mgarfias 4y ago
  depends on the state
- refurb 4y ago
  It’s illegal (federal) to fill out the purchase form and run a background check on your name if you are buying it for someone else.
  - LMYahooTFY 4y ago
    The GP was stating that federal authorities aren't serious about stopping straw purchases. If I purchase for myself, and then sell it to someone else, when does that constitute a straw purchase?
    - robonerd 4y ago
      > If I purchase for myself If that is your earnest intent when you bought it, then ostensibly it would be legal. However... Laws aren't computer code; gray areas get hashed out in court. How often you've done this and the amount of time that passed between the purchase and sale would be considered, as well as any paper trail you might have left. Simply put, there is no firm answer to your question. Talk to a real lawyer if you think you're wading into a gray area like that.

mywittyname 4y ago

> "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Sounds like a BS statistic: what about all the crimes people got away with committing? How do they know the status of the guns used in those? The real answer is probably that stolen guns are probably used by more sophisticated criminals (i.e., the ones that elude the police). And straw purchases are used by the people who keep getting caught, hence the need for the straw purchase to begin with.

sudosysgen 4y ago
Why? The sophisticated criminals will definitely use resales of straw purchases, that way they are in no risk in the actual purchase, and they can get any gun they like without having to rely on the luck of the draw.

turdit 4y ago

[flagged]

usrn 4y ago

10-15% is enough to be concerned IMO.

desmosxxx 4y ago

This is irrelevant. OP didn't say "most" and the primary concern is that it makes gun owners potential targets, which is true.

foerbert 4y ago
I disagree. It's a useful clarification. The OP didn't say "most" but neither did they say "some" or use any language to that effect. A naive reading could even take it as an implicit "all."

tomatotomato37 4y ago

That's how criminals get guns they actually intend to use. You're forgetting though that guns, like espresso machines and other machinery involving high pressures and tight tolerances, tend to be quite expensive, and their handheld nature makes them an extremely lucrative items to fence.

bluedino 4y ago
Sure, new guns are expensive. But some guns are pretty cheap. Keltecs, revolvers, shotguns.

Tozen 4y ago

You guys seem to also have missed the trick of people reporting their gun was "stolen", when in fact they may have illegally bought a weapon for someone else. So, was it "stolen" or a straw purchase? Then there is also the trick of buying from private sellers (private seller exemption), where a background check is needed or not gets even more murky (depends on state). This makes such situations even more fuzzy. Just one big (purposeful?) continual mess, that's not going to be fixed anytime soon, if ever.

giantg2 4y ago

This is highly misleading. Yes they purchased the guns, but where do you think those came from? Those black market guns include guns that were stolen by others. https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/suficspi16.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/suficspi16.pdf