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> Criminals get guns through burgling and robbery. Cool do you have any evidence or a citation to back up the claim. I’m surprised, seems more likely they woul

> Criminals get guns through burgling and robbery. Cool do you have any evidence or a citation to back up the claim. I’m surprised, seems more likely they would buy off the black market. Edit: Instead of downvoting, provide the source. Edit2: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/g... > An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.

mulmen 4y ago
And where do you think black markets source their wares?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- falcrist 4y ago
  As has been stated elsewhere, straw purchases are probably a major source. Smuggling is possible too. I couldn't say how these compare to theft, because I've never seen any solid data on the topic.
  - SkinTaco 4y ago
    - falcrist 4y ago
      By "a lot of opinions" you seem to mean that I gave two suggestions of possible sources of firearms, and then openly admitted I don't know how they compare to theft. Would you rather I have simply stated those two sources and omitted the part about not having the data to compare the quantity of firearms obtained through those sources? Do you have access to data we could use to make this comparison?
  - mulmen 4y ago
    I don’t understand this line of thinking. Regardless of other sources of black market guns publishing this list increases the number of stolen guns. At best it accomplishes nothing.
    - falcrist 4y ago
      You misunderstand my statement. I was answering your question, not arguing that the leak was good. I don't subscribe to the argument that firearms serve as an effective deterrent to robbery, so it almost certainly can't help. But you asked where the black market gets it's merchandise. Theft, smuggling, and straw purchases immediately spring to mind. It would be interesting to see data comparing the effectiveness of each.
      - mulmen 4y ago
        > I’m surprised, seems more likely they would buy off the black market. Reads to me as: “I’m surprised [criminals steal guns] seems more likely they would buy [stolen guns] off the black market.” The suggestion guns are sourced from a black market is not a compelling argument against those items being stolen. Invoking the black market itself establishes the incentive to steal.
        falcrist 4y ago
        You seem to have responded to me in error. I didn't make the statement you quoted. I merely responded to the question regarding where else the black market could have acquired those guns.
        mulmen 4y ago
        I made no error. You seem to have lost track of the context in this thread. I replied to a comment (not yours) that essentially said guns come from the black market instead of being stolen. I pointed out through a rhetorical device the possibility that the black market sells stolen products and so both are true. You then replied to that rhetorical.
- sha256sum 4y ago
  Wow, broad question. I know for pharma it's skimmed off the supply chain. But I have a hard time believing all black market guns, or even the majority, are stolen from residences. I imagine this is a case for low-level criminals, sometimes, but again some proof would clear it up.
  - mulmen 4y ago
    Of course they aren’t all stolen. Why would that absolute be implied or necessary? The question is if any guns are stolen and the effect of publishing this list on the number of stolen guns. I’m not sure how that is controversial. There can be other sources of guns. That doesn’t make this less bad.
    - sha256sum 4y ago
      Well the comment was in response to a claim that criminals get guns through burglary. Being a diligent person, I asked for a citation because it seemed like someone was making a claim out of their ass. I was right: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/g...
      - mulmen 4y ago
        Your link doesn't say what you seem to think it says. Gun theft is not the main way criminals get guns but it doesn't matter because it is still a way. Specifically it is the way that this data leak can contribute to the number of stolen guns.
        ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        dying by getting tangled in bedsheets is not the Main way to die, but its still a way, so we should get rid of bedsheets. if some contrived scenario represents less than 1% of the problem we are discussing, it's not a real problem. there are 8 billion people in the world, and it is always possible to find someone who has done something, no matter how ridiculous.
- landemva 4y ago
  1300 guns were given to gangsters in Mexico by Holder and Obama. https://nypost.com/2020/05/12/mexico-sends-note-to-the-us-over-obama-era-gun-running-sting https://nypost.com/2020/05/12/mexico-sends-note-to-the-us-ov... USA sending mountains of guns to Ukraine now. I expect many will go into black markets.
  - mulmen 4y ago
    > 1300 guns Ok? Is that a lot? > were given to gangsters in Mexico by Holder and Obama. There are two options here. One, you believe this is true, and that it is somehow relevant. That means you are arguing for more gun restrictions. Which means you are a person that makes it harder for me to preserve an important fundamental right of gun ownership. The second is that you are playing the part of an ignorant rube that plays into stereotypes of gun owners which are ultimately self-defeating to anyone who actually cares about the issue. Either way I can’t come up with a way that you are simultaneously making an interesting and honest argument.
  - YeBanKo 4y ago
    Ukraine already had shit load of firearm from the Soviet Union. Enough to fill the black market even without help from the US. What the US is sending now is more advanced and heavy, most likely not going to end up in the black market. IN some countries drug cartels probably can buy some of the heavy stuff directly from the manufacturer. The first link you mentioned is about a failed operation, rather than Obama arming gangsters. Is it bad, that it failed, yes. But it's not like they were given to them to arm them. There is a lot of context missing there.
robonerd 4y ago
> "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," 3.6 roentgen per hour? That's actually significant...
infamouscow 4y ago
The ATF literally gives guns to criminals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
- jonny_eh 4y ago
  "gave", past tense.
randyrand 4y ago
it’s about to be higher than 10-15% in california!
theyknowitsxmas 4y ago
Me. This took place in 2007. It was about midnight or 1AM and we were watching Clone High when there was a knock at the door. This being Canada and such I just opened the door, and the three guys pushed their way in with what I believe to be a Beretta 92 pointed at my face. Two of them guarded me while the other retrieved my then-girlfriend, now wife. They proceeded to steal basically all of my father's firearms. They had significant difficulty in opening the safes and at one point brought me down to the basement (where my father's workshop was) to try to help them out. They loaded everything into my mother's Dodge Neon. This process took them about two hours, during which time they rotated who was guarding us. Once they were finished, they bound us at ankles, wrists and hands with duct tape, flipped the main breaker, and drove off. I gave them a count of approximately five minutes, and then worked to free us. When our hands were bound I moved my hands a bit apart to be able to get the tape off easier. I could then reach into my pocket for my knife (a Kershaw Leek) and cut the rest of the tape off both of us. I then called 911. Over the next few weeks, I was the main suspect in the police investigation. I was interviewed repeatedly and polygraphed (the results of which were inconclusive, apparently). At one point one of the detectives basically asked my wife to "flip" on me, which she thought was pretty hilarious. These guys are basically still at large, I guess you could say. Two of the guns have since been recovered but the rest have never been seen again. Throughout this incident I remained quite calm. In fact, they played for me the recording of the 911 call, and suggested I must have orchestrated the incident because of how calm I sounded. Funny stuff. I sounded too calm on the phone with the 911 dispatcher, I used "big words" ("affirmative", etc.) when giving my statement, and, and this one is my favorite, I didn't get super angry when they asked me what should happen to the bad guys. Yeah, like from that episode of The Office. I said something like "well, whatever the law says... do that" and apparently I should have said something more like "TEAR THEIR FUCKIN HEADS OFF AND SHIT DOWN THEIR NECKS AND THEN RIP THEIR DICKS OFF AND SHOVE THEM UP THEIR ASSES".
giantg2 4y ago
Where do you think the black market guns come from? Pay attention to the footnotes. Also note that the data (which is used by the article too) is not about primary source. Meaning stolen guns could be included in the category of having been obtained from a friend too. https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/suficspi16.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/suficspi16.pdf 300k-600k are stolen every year. "That’s enough firearms to provide a weapon for every instance of gun violence in the country each year – several times over." https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/21/gun-theft-us-firearm-survey https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/21/gun-theft-us... There are numerous city level reports as well if one cares to Google them.
YeBanKo 4y ago
As far as I understand, PBS data is based on the guns, that were recovered and which it was possible to establish, that it was stolen, which depends on how this data is collected and reported by the states.

mulmen 4y ago

And where do you think black markets source their wares?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
falcrist 4y ago
As has been stated elsewhere, straw purchases are probably a major source. Smuggling is possible too. I couldn't say how these compare to theft, because I've never seen any solid data on the topic.
- SkinTaco 4y ago
  - falcrist 4y ago
    By "a lot of opinions" you seem to mean that I gave two suggestions of possible sources of firearms, and then openly admitted I don't know how they compare to theft. Would you rather I have simply stated those two sources and omitted the part about not having the data to compare the quantity of firearms obtained through those sources? Do you have access to data we could use to make this comparison?
- mulmen 4y ago
  I don’t understand this line of thinking. Regardless of other sources of black market guns publishing this list increases the number of stolen guns. At best it accomplishes nothing.
  - falcrist 4y ago
    You misunderstand my statement. I was answering your question, not arguing that the leak was good. I don't subscribe to the argument that firearms serve as an effective deterrent to robbery, so it almost certainly can't help. But you asked where the black market gets it's merchandise. Theft, smuggling, and straw purchases immediately spring to mind. It would be interesting to see data comparing the effectiveness of each.
    - mulmen 4y ago
      > I’m surprised, seems more likely they would buy off the black market. Reads to me as: “I’m surprised [criminals steal guns] seems more likely they would buy [stolen guns] off the black market.” The suggestion guns are sourced from a black market is not a compelling argument against those items being stolen. Invoking the black market itself establishes the incentive to steal.
      - falcrist 4y ago
        You seem to have responded to me in error. I didn't make the statement you quoted. I merely responded to the question regarding where else the black market could have acquired those guns.
        mulmen 4y ago
        I made no error. You seem to have lost track of the context in this thread. I replied to a comment (not yours) that essentially said guns come from the black market instead of being stolen. I pointed out through a rhetorical device the possibility that the black market sells stolen products and so both are true. You then replied to that rhetorical.
sha256sum 4y ago
Wow, broad question. I know for pharma it's skimmed off the supply chain. But I have a hard time believing all black market guns, or even the majority, are stolen from residences. I imagine this is a case for low-level criminals, sometimes, but again some proof would clear it up.
- mulmen 4y ago
  Of course they aren’t all stolen. Why would that absolute be implied or necessary? The question is if any guns are stolen and the effect of publishing this list on the number of stolen guns. I’m not sure how that is controversial. There can be other sources of guns. That doesn’t make this less bad.
  - sha256sum 4y ago
    Well the comment was in response to a claim that criminals get guns through burglary. Being a diligent person, I asked for a citation because it seemed like someone was making a claim out of their ass. I was right: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/g...
    - mulmen 4y ago
      Your link doesn't say what you seem to think it says. Gun theft is not the main way criminals get guns but it doesn't matter because it is still a way. Specifically it is the way that this data leak can contribute to the number of stolen guns.
      - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        dying by getting tangled in bedsheets is not the Main way to die, but its still a way, so we should get rid of bedsheets. if some contrived scenario represents less than 1% of the problem we are discussing, it's not a real problem. there are 8 billion people in the world, and it is always possible to find someone who has done something, no matter how ridiculous.
landemva 4y ago
1300 guns were given to gangsters in Mexico by Holder and Obama. https://nypost.com/2020/05/12/mexico-sends-note-to-the-us-over-obama-era-gun-running-sting https://nypost.com/2020/05/12/mexico-sends-note-to-the-us-ov... USA sending mountains of guns to Ukraine now. I expect many will go into black markets.
- mulmen 4y ago
  > 1300 guns Ok? Is that a lot? > were given to gangsters in Mexico by Holder and Obama. There are two options here. One, you believe this is true, and that it is somehow relevant. That means you are arguing for more gun restrictions. Which means you are a person that makes it harder for me to preserve an important fundamental right of gun ownership. The second is that you are playing the part of an ignorant rube that plays into stereotypes of gun owners which are ultimately self-defeating to anyone who actually cares about the issue. Either way I can’t come up with a way that you are simultaneously making an interesting and honest argument.
- YeBanKo 4y ago
  Ukraine already had shit load of firearm from the Soviet Union. Enough to fill the black market even without help from the US. What the US is sending now is more advanced and heavy, most likely not going to end up in the black market. IN some countries drug cartels probably can buy some of the heavy stuff directly from the manufacturer. The first link you mentioned is about a failed operation, rather than Obama arming gangsters. Is it bad, that it failed, yes. But it's not like they were given to them to arm them. There is a lot of context missing there.

robonerd 4y ago

> "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," 3.6 roentgen per hour? That's actually significant...

infamouscow 4y ago

The ATF literally gives guns to criminals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

jonny_eh 4y ago
"gave", past tense.

randyrand 4y ago

it’s about to be higher than 10-15% in california!

theyknowitsxmas 4y ago

Me. This took place in 2007. It was about midnight or 1AM and we were watching Clone High when there was a knock at the door. This being Canada and such I just opened the door, and the three guys pushed their way in with what I believe to be a Beretta 92 pointed at my face. Two of them guarded me while the other retrieved my then-girlfriend, now wife. They proceeded to steal basically all of my father's firearms. They had significant difficulty in opening the safes and at one point brought me down to the basement (where my father's workshop was) to try to help them out. They loaded everything into my mother's Dodge Neon. This process took them about two hours, during which time they rotated who was guarding us. Once they were finished, they bound us at ankles, wrists and hands with duct tape, flipped the main breaker, and drove off. I gave them a count of approximately five minutes, and then worked to free us. When our hands were bound I moved my hands a bit apart to be able to get the tape off easier. I could then reach into my pocket for my knife (a Kershaw Leek) and cut the rest of the tape off both of us. I then called 911. Over the next few weeks, I was the main suspect in the police investigation. I was interviewed repeatedly and polygraphed (the results of which were inconclusive, apparently). At one point one of the detectives basically asked my wife to "flip" on me, which she thought was pretty hilarious. These guys are basically still at large, I guess you could say. Two of the guns have since been recovered but the rest have never been seen again. Throughout this incident I remained quite calm. In fact, they played for me the recording of the 911 call, and suggested I must have orchestrated the incident because of how calm I sounded. Funny stuff. I sounded too calm on the phone with the 911 dispatcher, I used "big words" ("affirmative", etc.) when giving my statement, and, and this one is my favorite, I didn't get super angry when they asked me what should happen to the bad guys. Yeah, like from that episode of The Office. I said something like "well, whatever the law says... do that" and apparently I should have said something more like "TEAR THEIR FUCKIN HEADS OFF AND SHIT DOWN THEIR NECKS AND THEN RIP THEIR DICKS OFF AND SHOVE THEM UP THEIR ASSES".

giantg2 4y ago

Where do you think the black market guns come from? Pay attention to the footnotes. Also note that the data (which is used by the article too) is not about primary source. Meaning stolen guns could be included in the category of having been obtained from a friend too. https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/suficspi16.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/suficspi16.pdf 300k-600k are stolen every year. "That’s enough firearms to provide a weapon for every instance of gun violence in the country each year – several times over." https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/21/gun-theft-us-firearm-survey https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/21/gun-theft-us... There are numerous city level reports as well if one cares to Google them.

YeBanKo 4y ago

As far as I understand, PBS data is based on the guns, that were recovered and which it was possible to establish, that it was stolen, which depends on how this data is collected and reported by the states.