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So how long until we can "uplift" these marmosets to near human intelligence? Also, does increased expression of this gene in humans result in further developme

So how long until we can "uplift" these marmosets to near human intelligence? Also, does increased expression of this gene in humans result in further development of the neocortex?

JoeAltmaier 4y ago
Careful - they would likely not be fuzzy nice 'people'. Far more likely avaricious sociopaths. We have enough of those.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Neeklo 4y ago
In a later paper (2021) they tried the same experiment in mice: the paper claim that together with neocortex expansion, the behaviour of mice was altered( higher memory flexibility and reduced anxiety levels). This is still not what you're asking but quite interesting in my opinion! To get to your question (to which I really don't know the answer!): from my understanding, the mechanisms through wigh arhgap11b works are still not clear, so the simple overexpression might not be the answer for mega-brains! (sometimes these genes are regulated upstream so you cannot force them really, or on the other end, overexpression of genes often brings other unwanted consequences)
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  Yeah but more energy use, and further they were better at the challenges set so far, no the challenges to come as the experimenters adapted to the change.
- sinenomine 4y ago
  > the behaviour of mice was altered( higher memory flexibility and reduced anxiety levels). Notably, this isn't the first time there was a success in murine cognitive enhancement via genetic engineering. There was a promising line of research targeting NR2B overexpression: [1][2]. There seems to be an unfortunate lack of funding and research in this area. 1. https://www.nature.com/articles/43432 https://www.nature.com/articles/43432 2. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0007486 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
antisthenes 4y ago
Hopefully never. I've seen a few "Planet of the Apes" movies.
brailsafe 4y ago
Is there such a thing as degrees of gene expression? I thought it was more like a truth table
- throwaway4aday 4y ago
  Here's an interesting article that also explains how multiple copies of genes can alter certain traits https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12381-duplicate-genes-help-humans-go-the-extra-mile/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12381-duplicate-genes...
- 331c8c71 4y ago
  There are many mechanisms that influence the gene transcription and/or availability of gene products the keyword is "gene expression regulation". One way that happens for instance is packing/unpacking of the chromatin (genes in densely packed chromatin are not accessible). The trick is that chromatin can easily pack or unpack depending on what is going on around. Another simpler possibility is that there is a molecule that binds (stochastically) near promoter region (the place from which the gene is being transcribed) and hence influences the rate at which the gene is transcribed.
- mnw21cam 4y ago
  Yes, definitely. Like most things that evolve over time (like laws and spaghetti code), the mechanics of gene regulation are incredibly complicated, diverse, and messy. It's an analogue system too.
- sinenomine 4y ago
  There is a whole multitude of gene expression regulation mechanisms, which evolution successfully used to express whole nonlinear dynamical systems[1] appropriate to the task. These systems are partially understood[2] (there are promoter libraries[3], known cis- and trans- regulatory elements, activators and repressors, etc) and can be simulated[4][5] well enough to be of use for tailoring[6] single-celled organisms to a specific biotechnological task at hand. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_gene_expression#Circuitry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_gene_expression#... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_biology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_biology 3. http://rulai.cshl.edu/cgi-bin/TRED/tred.cgi?process=home http://rulai.cshl.edu/cgi-bin/TRED/tred.cgi?process=home 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBML https://github.com/SysBioChalmers/Human-GEM https://github.com/SysBioChalmers/Human-GEM 5. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13059-019-1730-3 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13059-019-1730-3 6. https://biotechnologyforbiofuels.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13068-019-1518-4 https://biotechnologyforbiofuels.biomedcentral.com/articles/...
nathias 4y ago
how long until we can uplift ourselves ...
0des 4y ago
Algernon wasn't happy. Let them enjoy their bliss.
- sinenomine 4y ago
  Ah, the good old "argument from media". Someone should bring up black mirror as well, surely there is some fitting platitude to be brought from that one ... again. ... What if we uplifted a species enough for its living representative to express their gratitude to us in our own language? Is it completely impossible, or merely unlikely?
  - astrange 4y ago
    If you uplifted a mouse I think it'd mainly complain about its two year lifespan and the difficulty of feeding its new brain with a mouse diet and digestive system. Although, at least mice are omnivores and don't have to build their brains out of hay like a guinea pig.

So how long until we can "uplift" these marmosets to near human intelligence? Also, does increased expression of this gene in humans result in further development of the neocortex?

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

Careful - they would likely not be fuzzy nice 'people'. Far more likely avaricious sociopaths. We have enough of those.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Neeklo 4y ago

In a later paper (2021) they tried the same experiment in mice: the paper claim that together with neocortex expansion, the behaviour of mice was altered( higher memory flexibility and reduced anxiety levels). This is still not what you're asking but quite interesting in my opinion! To get to your question (to which I really don't know the answer!): from my understanding, the mechanisms through wigh arhgap11b works are still not clear, so the simple overexpression might not be the answer for mega-brains! (sometimes these genes are regulated upstream so you cannot force them really, or on the other end, overexpression of genes often brings other unwanted consequences)

daniel-cussen 4y ago
Yeah but more energy use, and further they were better at the challenges set so far, no the challenges to come as the experimenters adapted to the change.
sinenomine 4y ago
> the behaviour of mice was altered( higher memory flexibility and reduced anxiety levels). Notably, this isn't the first time there was a success in murine cognitive enhancement via genetic engineering. There was a promising line of research targeting NR2B overexpression: [1][2]. There seems to be an unfortunate lack of funding and research in this area. 1. https://www.nature.com/articles/43432 https://www.nature.com/articles/43432 2. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0007486 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

antisthenes 4y ago

Hopefully never. I've seen a few "Planet of the Apes" movies.

brailsafe 4y ago

Is there such a thing as degrees of gene expression? I thought it was more like a truth table

throwaway4aday 4y ago
Here's an interesting article that also explains how multiple copies of genes can alter certain traits https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12381-duplicate-genes-help-humans-go-the-extra-mile/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12381-duplicate-genes...
331c8c71 4y ago
There are many mechanisms that influence the gene transcription and/or availability of gene products the keyword is "gene expression regulation". One way that happens for instance is packing/unpacking of the chromatin (genes in densely packed chromatin are not accessible). The trick is that chromatin can easily pack or unpack depending on what is going on around. Another simpler possibility is that there is a molecule that binds (stochastically) near promoter region (the place from which the gene is being transcribed) and hence influences the rate at which the gene is transcribed.
mnw21cam 4y ago
Yes, definitely. Like most things that evolve over time (like laws and spaghetti code), the mechanics of gene regulation are incredibly complicated, diverse, and messy. It's an analogue system too.
sinenomine 4y ago
There is a whole multitude of gene expression regulation mechanisms, which evolution successfully used to express whole nonlinear dynamical systems[1] appropriate to the task. These systems are partially understood[2] (there are promoter libraries[3], known cis- and trans- regulatory elements, activators and repressors, etc) and can be simulated[4][5] well enough to be of use for tailoring[6] single-celled organisms to a specific biotechnological task at hand. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_gene_expression#Circuitry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_gene_expression#... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_biology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_biology 3. http://rulai.cshl.edu/cgi-bin/TRED/tred.cgi?process=home http://rulai.cshl.edu/cgi-bin/TRED/tred.cgi?process=home 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBML https://github.com/SysBioChalmers/Human-GEM https://github.com/SysBioChalmers/Human-GEM 5. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13059-019-1730-3 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13059-019-1730-3 6. https://biotechnologyforbiofuels.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13068-019-1518-4 https://biotechnologyforbiofuels.biomedcentral.com/articles/...

nathias 4y ago

how long until we can uplift ourselves ...

0des 4y ago

Algernon wasn't happy. Let them enjoy their bliss.

sinenomine 4y ago
Ah, the good old "argument from media". Someone should bring up black mirror as well, surely there is some fitting platitude to be brought from that one ... again. ... What if we uplifted a species enough for its living representative to express their gratitude to us in our own language? Is it completely impossible, or merely unlikely?
- astrange 4y ago
  If you uplifted a mouse I think it'd mainly complain about its two year lifespan and the difficulty of feeding its new brain with a mouse diet and digestive system. Although, at least mice are omnivores and don't have to build their brains out of hay like a guinea pig.