4 ms·

As an author of pinephone keyboard firmware, I spent a bit of time thinking and trying to use keyboard like this. I can say that what hinders portability/seriou

by megous 4y ago

As an author of pinephone keyboard firmware, I spent a bit of time thinking and trying to use keyboard like this. I can say that what hinders portability/serious use of all of these layout designs that try to emulate regular big keyboard is that they try to emulate big keyboard layout. That layout is made with an asumption that you have many fingers available, and that they can easily reach anywhere if you like. If you have only two thumbs available for typing, that can only reach about half the keyboard each (quite a hard limit!), you realize how asumptions this layout makes suddenly don't hold, and normal things like ctrl+a or alt+shift+1, or alt+shift+any arrow are almost impossible. Yes, you can modify the shortcuts in i3wm,screen,... (not Firefox, which is quite resistant to modifying keyboard shortcuts by design) specially for your "PDA". But if you just want a portable device you can painlessly migrate your tasks to for a few days a year, spending a lot of time designing shortcuts for your DE, or terminal multiplexer, is not that appealing. It would be probably more useful if key layout was designed from the start to allow various modifier combos to be invoked by dedicated keys, or layout designed so that more modifiers were symetricaly placed (or something even less traditional, and have all letter/number keys on the right and all modifier/modifier combos/special keys on the left), instead of wasting space on big enter key, or big spacebar (for which you may spend several HW iterations just to make those right and reactive on their whole surface), etc. Due to size, it's usually uncomfortable to press 3 key combos even with the keyboard laying on the table. Also comfortable position for the most comonly used keys (usually modifiers) is not on the edge of the keyboard. That's really pretty bad for your thumbs. The layout of these things just needs a lot more thought. Sad thing is, that if someone would spend a ton of research and thinking on making something usable and comfortable, most people would completely poopoo it as a freaky unusable layout, just because it would look unfamiliar, lol.

JadeNB 4y ago
> not Firefox, which is quite resistant to modifying keyboard shortcuts by design Do you have a Mozilla reference for this design principle? I've always wondered about this difficulty, but thought it was just an accident.
- megous 4y ago
  Just open omni.js and search around, shortcuts are hardcoded in code in many places. I don't know about design document, just about reality.
doovd 4y ago
Original blackberry keyboard would like to have a word with you. I wish I could find a decent smartphone with the same keyboard "that tries to emulate a big keyboard"
- megous 4y ago
  That's a different size and not really meant to ssh over, or control midnight commander, screen/tmux or shortcut heavy DE. I'm pretty sure you'd struggle with such tasks, too on BB keyboard.
ryukafalz 4y ago
I believe the keyboard on this is designed to be typed on like a normal keyboard, not with your thumbs, which addresses some of your concerns. I seem to recall hearing somewhere (possibly in an interview) that the 7 inch size was chosen because it was the smallest they could get with a keyboard that still feels nice to type on normally. As for the layout, the previous Reform has free keyboard firmware so you can change the keymap however you like. I assume this one will be the same.
fer 4y ago
For a portable device I'd love to see a layout/controller like this [0]. I owned one for a while over 10 years ago, and while it took a while to get used to it, it was great for typing text. I gave up on it because I rely a lot on hjkl for movement everywhere and symbols for programming weren't super accessible, so it wasn't really all that convenient for my main use case, but I'd use it over any 7-inch physical keyboard (or virtual keyboard, of course). Personally I don't think there's a good traditional (as in, flat and square mesh of keys) keyboard in those size ranges. For me it's regular keyboard if there's space, gamepad-like at around the 7 inch size, then BlackBerry style if any smaller. [0] http://www.alphagrips.com/ http://www.alphagrips.com/
- txbuck 4y ago
  As far as ergonomics go, a controller-like form-factor is almost definitely the current ideal for a portable, carry-able, holdable keyboard. Obviously just slapping QWERTY on it wholesale may not be the best idea, and doing the R&D for a more appropriate layout or entirely different approach to input could be costly. carriers for phones or other devices could also complicate it. Might be the reason there aren't more on the market? Is there anything like it out there now? I searched around for something like this a while back, wasn't really satisfied with my findings, and haven't been able to stop thinking about it since.
horsawlarway 4y ago
> Sad thing is, that if someone would spend a ton of research and thinking on making something usable and comfortable, most people would completely poopoo it as a freaky unusable layout, just because it would look unfamiliar, lol. Absolutely. 8-Pen was this for Android. (example video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3OuCR0EpGo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3OuCR0EpGo) It was absolutely, hands down without question, the most accurate way to quickly enter text into a phone using only a screen. Seriously - I could type at about 25-35 wpm on my phone screen at 100% accuracy, one handed. They'd done a ton of work to place letters based on frequency and likely combinations to make typing smooth and relatively fast. No fucking disaster of auto-complete that I have to click to get the word I want, or when you actually have a vocabulary larger than 150 words, but auto-complete is fucking dumb and always picks the most basic option from the path, or when the word you want isn't in the phone dictionary, no hiccups if you want to misssspell something for impact. It was genuinely just the best keyboard I have EVER used on a phone. The downside? It takes about 3 weeks of practice to actually learn, and most people just refuse to try for longer than 10 seconds. I still find it incredibly frustrating that qwerty, of all god-damned things, is the input formula we've picked for phones. It's fucking dumb.
- megous 4y ago
  Ha, interesting! Thanks for sharing. :)
- funcDropShadow 4y ago
  That's really interesting. What happened to 8pen, the domain is not used anymore. Are there still some implementations around?
  - mackrevinack 4y ago
    just did a quick search and found this https://github.com/flide/8VIM https://github.com/flide/8VIM
  - kerneis 4y ago
    https://www.droid-life.com/2019/05/30/tbt-remembering-8pen/ https://www.droid-life.com/2019/05/30/tbt-remembering-8pen/ mentions https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=inc.flide.vi8 https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=inc.flide.vi8.
lvass 4y ago
>Also comfortable position for the most comonly used keys (usually modifiers) is not on the edge of the keyboard As an emacs user, I can confirm this is absolutely the case except on the bottom edges of an elevated keyboard, where you can palm press which is the most comfortable. This leaves out every traditional portable device's keyboard, but keys specifically designed to be palm-pressed on devices like this would be awesome if you could only find a way so it doesn't get pressed accidentally.
- megous 4y ago
  Other trick would be to add modifier keys on the bottom. I thought of making such a mod for PP keyboard using a membrane keypad like this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004014867323.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004014867323.html Pinephone keyboard has extra GPIO exposed on PCB (on my request, because I had this mod on mind, early on) so that this is doable, and I made sure the firmware is safely flashable in field: https://xnux.eu/pinephone-keyboard/ https://xnux.eu/pinephone-keyboard/ so that it can be extended to support this. That would add 6 different or 2x3 symmetric modifier keys to the bottom (3 for each hand) in addition to what's on top, and would make the keyboard much more usable for thumb typing. Why waste 2-4 fingers that are usually resting on the bottom? I have to find some time to attempt the mod. :)
guessbest 4y ago
The Samsung Q1 Ultra was a 7 inch computer than ran Windows 8 as a tablet and had a very nice keyboard layout that allowed holding the device and using half the keyboard from each thumb. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnzwbTO8FPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnzwbTO8FPY
asddubs 4y ago
Thank you for the PP Keyboard firmware (and your various other contributions) - I agree i've found this to be the case too. I think a really good solution would just be 1 or 2 shoulder/underside buttons on each side for modifier keys.

by megous 4y ago

JadeNB 4y ago

> not Firefox, which is quite resistant to modifying keyboard shortcuts by design Do you have a Mozilla reference for this design principle? I've always wondered about this difficulty, but thought it was just an accident.

megous 4y ago
Just open omni.js and search around, shortcuts are hardcoded in code in many places. I don't know about design document, just about reality.

doovd 4y ago

Original blackberry keyboard would like to have a word with you. I wish I could find a decent smartphone with the same keyboard "that tries to emulate a big keyboard"

megous 4y ago
That's a different size and not really meant to ssh over, or control midnight commander, screen/tmux or shortcut heavy DE. I'm pretty sure you'd struggle with such tasks, too on BB keyboard.

ryukafalz 4y ago

I believe the keyboard on this is designed to be typed on like a normal keyboard, not with your thumbs, which addresses some of your concerns. I seem to recall hearing somewhere (possibly in an interview) that the 7 inch size was chosen because it was the smallest they could get with a keyboard that still feels nice to type on normally. As for the layout, the previous Reform has free keyboard firmware so you can change the keymap however you like. I assume this one will be the same.

fer 4y ago

For a portable device I'd love to see a layout/controller like this [0]. I owned one for a while over 10 years ago, and while it took a while to get used to it, it was great for typing text. I gave up on it because I rely a lot on hjkl for movement everywhere and symbols for programming weren't super accessible, so it wasn't really all that convenient for my main use case, but I'd use it over any 7-inch physical keyboard (or virtual keyboard, of course). Personally I don't think there's a good traditional (as in, flat and square mesh of keys) keyboard in those size ranges. For me it's regular keyboard if there's space, gamepad-like at around the 7 inch size, then BlackBerry style if any smaller. [0] http://www.alphagrips.com/ http://www.alphagrips.com/

txbuck 4y ago
As far as ergonomics go, a controller-like form-factor is almost definitely the current ideal for a portable, carry-able, holdable keyboard. Obviously just slapping QWERTY on it wholesale may not be the best idea, and doing the R&D for a more appropriate layout or entirely different approach to input could be costly. carriers for phones or other devices could also complicate it. Might be the reason there aren't more on the market? Is there anything like it out there now? I searched around for something like this a while back, wasn't really satisfied with my findings, and haven't been able to stop thinking about it since.

horsawlarway 4y ago

> Sad thing is, that if someone would spend a ton of research and thinking on making something usable and comfortable, most people would completely poopoo it as a freaky unusable layout, just because it would look unfamiliar, lol. Absolutely. 8-Pen was this for Android. (example video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3OuCR0EpGo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3OuCR0EpGo) It was absolutely, hands down without question, the most accurate way to quickly enter text into a phone using only a screen. Seriously - I could type at about 25-35 wpm on my phone screen at 100% accuracy, one handed. They'd done a ton of work to place letters based on frequency and likely combinations to make typing smooth and relatively fast. No fucking disaster of auto-complete that I have to click to get the word I want, or when you actually have a vocabulary larger than 150 words, but auto-complete is fucking dumb and always picks the most basic option from the path, or when the word you want isn't in the phone dictionary, no hiccups if you want to misssspell something for impact. It was genuinely just the best keyboard I have EVER used on a phone. The downside? It takes about 3 weeks of practice to actually learn, and most people just refuse to try for longer than 10 seconds. I still find it incredibly frustrating that qwerty, of all god-damned things, is the input formula we've picked for phones. It's fucking dumb.

megous 4y ago
Ha, interesting! Thanks for sharing. :)
funcDropShadow 4y ago
That's really interesting. What happened to 8pen, the domain is not used anymore. Are there still some implementations around?
- mackrevinack 4y ago
  just did a quick search and found this https://github.com/flide/8VIM https://github.com/flide/8VIM
- kerneis 4y ago
  https://www.droid-life.com/2019/05/30/tbt-remembering-8pen/ https://www.droid-life.com/2019/05/30/tbt-remembering-8pen/ mentions https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=inc.flide.vi8 https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=inc.flide.vi8.

lvass 4y ago

>Also comfortable position for the most comonly used keys (usually modifiers) is not on the edge of the keyboard As an emacs user, I can confirm this is absolutely the case except on the bottom edges of an elevated keyboard, where you can palm press which is the most comfortable. This leaves out every traditional portable device's keyboard, but keys specifically designed to be palm-pressed on devices like this would be awesome if you could only find a way so it doesn't get pressed accidentally.

megous 4y ago
Other trick would be to add modifier keys on the bottom. I thought of making such a mod for PP keyboard using a membrane keypad like this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004014867323.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004014867323.html Pinephone keyboard has extra GPIO exposed on PCB (on my request, because I had this mod on mind, early on) so that this is doable, and I made sure the firmware is safely flashable in field: https://xnux.eu/pinephone-keyboard/ https://xnux.eu/pinephone-keyboard/ so that it can be extended to support this. That would add 6 different or 2x3 symmetric modifier keys to the bottom (3 for each hand) in addition to what's on top, and would make the keyboard much more usable for thumb typing. Why waste 2-4 fingers that are usually resting on the bottom? I have to find some time to attempt the mod. :)

guessbest 4y ago

The Samsung Q1 Ultra was a 7 inch computer than ran Windows 8 as a tablet and had a very nice keyboard layout that allowed holding the device and using half the keyboard from each thumb. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnzwbTO8FPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnzwbTO8FPY

asddubs 4y ago

Thank you for the PP Keyboard firmware (and your various other contributions) - I agree i've found this to be the case too. I think a really good solution would just be 1 or 2 shoulder/underside buttons on each side for modifier keys.