4 ms·

I'm still convinced that whiteboarding is the only way to get a glimpse into how a dev thinks and communicates which for the most part are the two most difficul

by nojito 4y ago

I'm still convinced that whiteboarding is the only way to get a glimpse into how a dev thinks and communicates which for the most part are the two most difficult aspects of the job.

nicoburns 4y ago
I don't think it's whiteboarding that's the problem. It's whiteboarding obscure leetcode algorithms. I've been asked to whiteboard a system architecture before, which was IMO much more reasonable as it's the sort of thing I would have been doing on the job.
- shafyy 4y ago
  Completely agree
- rtp4me 4y ago
  Agreed. And, I would like to add, the act of white boarding implies you standing in front of strangers trying to think on your feet. Some people are not as comfortable talking to an audience like that. Maybe a suggestion is for everyone to sit down and draw out the problem/solution on a piece of paper. Or, how about a reverse white-boarding session? Let the interviewer draw your info on the board while you sit down. Sounds odd, but this allows you to (a) verbalize the problem/solution for someone else to understand and write it down, and (b) gives you the opportunity to see the bigger picture without getting too close to the board (forest, trees, etc).
devoutsalsa 4y ago
Is there a different way to say “see how I think”. You can’t see how I think. And even if you could, you’re only seeing how I think when you’re staring at me in a contrived setting while I exercise a skill I rarely practice.
- nojito 4y ago
  There's nothing contrived about writing code and talking about it.
  - warrenm 4y ago
    It's absolutely "contrived" to write code in front of a group of strangers talking about whatever happens to be running through your mind at the moment in the 17.2 minutes that are left in the session before you break for water and a bathroom trip
wiz21c 4y ago
When hiring, besides other things I asked for some test code. The test was to code a recursive ls from scratch but in a professional way. The candidate was put inside our team, had access to all our tools and the web and had 45 minutes to do the thing. We specifically told him that he can ask question whenever he wants. Admittedly, that test was not intended at PhD's in CompSci. You'd be surprised at how many people fail that test. Things we were looking at: - is the code correct - can the code be explained clearly - does the code scale (memory / speed) - is the code portable (Solaris was still at thing) ? - how many external resources were used (copy pasting code from the web is a perfectly acceptable solution) - unicode support ? - automated tests ?
- TruthWillHurt 4y ago
  I don't mind whiteboard tests, or tests in general, but that is an example of a terrible test. You want production grade code delivered on the spot? AUTOMATED TESTS?!? I wouldn't want to work for you.
  - wiz21c 4y ago
    it's more like how far the guy goes. Admittedly, an auto test is quite above the average :-) I've never put someone aside because of that. Production grade code is, in a big part, a matter of good habits. There's no reason those habits can't show up during a test. Especially when the test is very easy.
mountainriver 4y ago
What if they have open source work? Can’t you look at that and the comments to see how they interact?
- nojito 4y ago
  No because talking and writing are two separate skills.
  - mountainriver 4y ago
    except in remote environments where most things should happen async... and most dev work is remote...
    - nojito 4y ago
      Nope. We meet/touchbase/connect with our remote workers all the time. Not sure what you're talking about honestly.
      - mountainriver 4y ago
        Not sure what your talking about honestly, but I could chat with someone about their OSS work and get the same understanding of them as a developer
clintonwoo 4y ago
Whiteboarding was great before the pandemic. Especially if you are allowed to whiteboard first then code up on PC (which is easier than coding with a marker). Nowadays with the virtual interviews it can be hard to visualize, describe and explore some problems with virtual drawing tools..

by nojito 4y ago

I'm still convinced that whiteboarding is the only way to get a glimpse into how a dev thinks and communicates which for the most part are the two most difficult aspects of the job.

nicoburns 4y ago

I don't think it's whiteboarding that's the problem. It's whiteboarding obscure leetcode algorithms. I've been asked to whiteboard a system architecture before, which was IMO much more reasonable as it's the sort of thing I would have been doing on the job.

shafyy 4y ago
Completely agree
rtp4me 4y ago
Agreed. And, I would like to add, the act of white boarding implies you standing in front of strangers trying to think on your feet. Some people are not as comfortable talking to an audience like that. Maybe a suggestion is for everyone to sit down and draw out the problem/solution on a piece of paper. Or, how about a reverse white-boarding session? Let the interviewer draw your info on the board while you sit down. Sounds odd, but this allows you to (a) verbalize the problem/solution for someone else to understand and write it down, and (b) gives you the opportunity to see the bigger picture without getting too close to the board (forest, trees, etc).

devoutsalsa 4y ago

Is there a different way to say “see how I think”. You can’t see how I think. And even if you could, you’re only seeing how I think when you’re staring at me in a contrived setting while I exercise a skill I rarely practice.

nojito 4y ago
There's nothing contrived about writing code and talking about it.
- warrenm 4y ago
  It's absolutely "contrived" to write code in front of a group of strangers talking about whatever happens to be running through your mind at the moment in the 17.2 minutes that are left in the session before you break for water and a bathroom trip

wiz21c 4y ago

When hiring, besides other things I asked for some test code. The test was to code a recursive ls from scratch but in a professional way. The candidate was put inside our team, had access to all our tools and the web and had 45 minutes to do the thing. We specifically told him that he can ask question whenever he wants. Admittedly, that test was not intended at PhD's in CompSci. You'd be surprised at how many people fail that test. Things we were looking at: - is the code correct - can the code be explained clearly - does the code scale (memory / speed) - is the code portable (Solaris was still at thing) ? - how many external resources were used (copy pasting code from the web is a perfectly acceptable solution) - unicode support ? - automated tests ?

TruthWillHurt 4y ago
I don't mind whiteboard tests, or tests in general, but that is an example of a terrible test. You want production grade code delivered on the spot? AUTOMATED TESTS?!? I wouldn't want to work for you.
- wiz21c 4y ago
  it's more like how far the guy goes. Admittedly, an auto test is quite above the average :-) I've never put someone aside because of that. Production grade code is, in a big part, a matter of good habits. There's no reason those habits can't show up during a test. Especially when the test is very easy.

mountainriver 4y ago

What if they have open source work? Can’t you look at that and the comments to see how they interact?

nojito 4y ago
No because talking and writing are two separate skills.
- mountainriver 4y ago
  except in remote environments where most things should happen async... and most dev work is remote...
  - nojito 4y ago
    Nope. We meet/touchbase/connect with our remote workers all the time. Not sure what you're talking about honestly.
    - mountainriver 4y ago
      Not sure what your talking about honestly, but I could chat with someone about their OSS work and get the same understanding of them as a developer

clintonwoo 4y ago

Whiteboarding was great before the pandemic. Especially if you are allowed to whiteboard first then code up on PC (which is easier than coding with a marker). Nowadays with the virtual interviews it can be hard to visualize, describe and explore some problems with virtual drawing tools..