3 ms·

If programming is an art, then the programmer should have an audition instead of an interview. Which is approximately what leetcode is.

AstralStorm 4y ago
Except that would be like asking say a piano performer to run Liszt etudes mechanically, when you're hiring someone to play at your wedding. Completely different skills. Sometimes, you do need someone with these skills. These times are few. Often, a person forced to train to this test will neglect other skills or be unable to match top tier performance in the weird test. Wrong audition can be worse than no audition.
- trashtester 4y ago
  Some programmers are like wedding singers, some play for a global audience. If you hire a piano player for large symphonic orchestra, or a famous band, and they are not already famous, you want to hear them play. Maybe one piece they chose themselves, but maybe also a piece everyone in the genre is expected to know. And if they have to improvize a bit, that may tell you a lot, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtI3IMlGRMY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtI3IMlGRMY Sometime you meet programmer like this, than you can jam with on almost any topic. Those that can repeatedly improvize their way to "leetcode" solutions, while you observe their thinking process. The "problem" with "leetcode" is that it has become too common and formalized. When people start to practice leetcode just to land the job, it suck the fun out of it, and it becomes harder to tell if the candidate is able to solve similar, but novel problems.
  - 331c8c71 4y ago
    Nah. There is a longstanding tradition of competitions in classical music, especially for piano players. The vast majority of concert pianists got some notoriety through such competitions. And no, improvisation skills are not something classical pianists are judged upon. Orchestra musicians indeed are routinely hired via a process that involves auditions, but my understanding is that applies only to those at the beginnings of their careers. Popular/rock/jazz band formation process IMO is indeed similar to how start-ups are created (i.e. rather informal process generally based on networking, though audition jams also happen to fill a specific position). I fail to see how corporate staffing is similar.
  - 331c8c71 4y ago
    I was curious how staffing in classical orchestras work and below is a good explanation from Quora (about the US). https://www.quora.com/How-does-seating-and-hiring-firing-in-a-professional-symphonic-orchestra-work https://www.quora.com/How-does-seating-and-hiring-firing-in-... My former teacher (he's been a concertmaster of a major city symphony for years, and is also well versed in the different ways in which one can ask "Did you actually practice?") wrote this explanation: Think of it as management and labor. Management is Executive Director, Music Director, Principal Guest, staff, etc. Labor is orchestra musicians. Then you have the Board, which is there to raise money. Then you have the volunteers. Bear in mind, orchestras are non-profit, 501(c)(3). So between management and musicians there is a CBA, or collective bargaining agreement. Just like the Major League Baseball has one between players and owners. In the CBA, you'll find chapters on hiring and firing. Each Symphony has its own CBA. Usually, hiring is done by auditions behind a screen. If you're hired, your first year is the probationary period (sometimes two years). At the end of it, if management deems you fit for the job, you are granted tenure, just like at a university when you're applying for a teaching position. You don't need to re-audition, unless it is for a different title (from section to title chair, etc.), in which case you do. Firing, if it must come down to it, is also explained in the CBA. The big symphonies are part of AFM (American Federation of Musicians). Then you have regional orchestras, community orchestras, etc. Some might be unionized, some not, but essentially it sort of works the same way. Some concertmasters, like in England, are contracted outside the CBA, so they may be on a 3 or 4 yr contract, or more. But I think it the US, most are part of the CBA.
    - 331c8c71 4y ago
      And I bet no one sane asks musicians to play and talk at the same time (to better assess their "thought process").
eikenberry 4y ago
Most arts have a portfolio, not an audition. Auditions are specific to the performing arts which programming is definitely not. Musically I'd equate programming more to composition, not performance as there is no audience.
- tartoran 4y ago
  > Most arts have a portfolio Some employers ask for your personal github. That’s just like a portfolio of past work.
- 331c8c71 4y ago
  Well architects designing large systems through and through are maybe like composers Your run of the mill dev would be more like a studio musician hired to play a specific instrument in a specific genre. Surely, he/she needs to be able to come up with lines/hooks/riffs/solos (when asked) and play part in the arrangement but composing from scratch and for multiple instruments would be rather out of scope. While there's no direct audience for studio musicians (only the output matters) there are definitely performance expectations and the studio musicians are expected to be efficient.
tartoran 4y ago
> If programming is an art, then the programmer should have an audition instead of an interview. Which is approximately what leetcode is. Except that audition is to heavy on theory and minutia and the performer isn’t really showing (not given the chance) their better performance. There’s a variety of skills that leetcode style interviews flattens into a narrow category.
Jistern 4y ago
Yikes. This is very poorly argued. Engineering is overwhelmingly an applied science, not an art. Sure, arts have elements of science and sciences have elements of arts. But, there's a reason we don't normally call scientists artists and vice-versa. Birds are not fish, even though some birds swim and some fish fly. See?
- philwelch 4y ago
  > Engineering is overwhelmingly an applied science, not an art. This objection would be better addressed to the comment I was replying to, since I was just accepting the premise for the sake of argument.

AstralStorm 4y ago

Except that would be like asking say a piano performer to run Liszt etudes mechanically, when you're hiring someone to play at your wedding. Completely different skills. Sometimes, you do need someone with these skills. These times are few. Often, a person forced to train to this test will neglect other skills or be unable to match top tier performance in the weird test. Wrong audition can be worse than no audition.

trashtester 4y ago
Some programmers are like wedding singers, some play for a global audience. If you hire a piano player for large symphonic orchestra, or a famous band, and they are not already famous, you want to hear them play. Maybe one piece they chose themselves, but maybe also a piece everyone in the genre is expected to know. And if they have to improvize a bit, that may tell you a lot, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtI3IMlGRMY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtI3IMlGRMY Sometime you meet programmer like this, than you can jam with on almost any topic. Those that can repeatedly improvize their way to "leetcode" solutions, while you observe their thinking process. The "problem" with "leetcode" is that it has become too common and formalized. When people start to practice leetcode just to land the job, it suck the fun out of it, and it becomes harder to tell if the candidate is able to solve similar, but novel problems.
- 331c8c71 4y ago
  Nah. There is a longstanding tradition of competitions in classical music, especially for piano players. The vast majority of concert pianists got some notoriety through such competitions. And no, improvisation skills are not something classical pianists are judged upon. Orchestra musicians indeed are routinely hired via a process that involves auditions, but my understanding is that applies only to those at the beginnings of their careers. Popular/rock/jazz band formation process IMO is indeed similar to how start-ups are created (i.e. rather informal process generally based on networking, though audition jams also happen to fill a specific position). I fail to see how corporate staffing is similar.
- 331c8c71 4y ago
  I was curious how staffing in classical orchestras work and below is a good explanation from Quora (about the US). https://www.quora.com/How-does-seating-and-hiring-firing-in-a-professional-symphonic-orchestra-work https://www.quora.com/How-does-seating-and-hiring-firing-in-... My former teacher (he's been a concertmaster of a major city symphony for years, and is also well versed in the different ways in which one can ask "Did you actually practice?") wrote this explanation: Think of it as management and labor. Management is Executive Director, Music Director, Principal Guest, staff, etc. Labor is orchestra musicians. Then you have the Board, which is there to raise money. Then you have the volunteers. Bear in mind, orchestras are non-profit, 501(c)(3). So between management and musicians there is a CBA, or collective bargaining agreement. Just like the Major League Baseball has one between players and owners. In the CBA, you'll find chapters on hiring and firing. Each Symphony has its own CBA. Usually, hiring is done by auditions behind a screen. If you're hired, your first year is the probationary period (sometimes two years). At the end of it, if management deems you fit for the job, you are granted tenure, just like at a university when you're applying for a teaching position. You don't need to re-audition, unless it is for a different title (from section to title chair, etc.), in which case you do. Firing, if it must come down to it, is also explained in the CBA. The big symphonies are part of AFM (American Federation of Musicians). Then you have regional orchestras, community orchestras, etc. Some might be unionized, some not, but essentially it sort of works the same way. Some concertmasters, like in England, are contracted outside the CBA, so they may be on a 3 or 4 yr contract, or more. But I think it the US, most are part of the CBA.
  - 331c8c71 4y ago
    And I bet no one sane asks musicians to play and talk at the same time (to better assess their "thought process").

eikenberry 4y ago

Most arts have a portfolio, not an audition. Auditions are specific to the performing arts which programming is definitely not. Musically I'd equate programming more to composition, not performance as there is no audience.

tartoran 4y ago
> Most arts have a portfolio Some employers ask for your personal github. That’s just like a portfolio of past work.
331c8c71 4y ago
Well architects designing large systems through and through are maybe like composers Your run of the mill dev would be more like a studio musician hired to play a specific instrument in a specific genre. Surely, he/she needs to be able to come up with lines/hooks/riffs/solos (when asked) and play part in the arrangement but composing from scratch and for multiple instruments would be rather out of scope. While there's no direct audience for studio musicians (only the output matters) there are definitely performance expectations and the studio musicians are expected to be efficient.

tartoran 4y ago

> If programming is an art, then the programmer should have an audition instead of an interview. Which is approximately what leetcode is. Except that audition is to heavy on theory and minutia and the performer isn’t really showing (not given the chance) their better performance. There’s a variety of skills that leetcode style interviews flattens into a narrow category.

Jistern 4y ago

Yikes. This is very poorly argued. Engineering is overwhelmingly an applied science, not an art. Sure, arts have elements of science and sciences have elements of arts. But, there's a reason we don't normally call scientists artists and vice-versa. Birds are not fish, even though some birds swim and some fish fly. See?

philwelch 4y ago
> Engineering is overwhelmingly an applied science, not an art. This objection would be better addressed to the comment I was replying to, since I was just accepting the premise for the sake of argument.