6 ms·

Ugh, every time I see a device like this (and even the larger Reform) I'm so tempted. But I learned my lesson form-factor wise with the GPD Win Max: even as a t

Ugh, every time I see a device like this (and even the larger Reform) I'm so tempted. But I learned my lesson form-factor wise with the GPD Win Max: even as a travel laptop it's painfully small after about a day or two of use. And the sad reality is that the performance-freedom tradeoff is still immense. If we assume the best system module is faster than say a Raspberry Pi 4 (which seems optimistic), it'd still get absolutely walked by an 11-year old i5 (e.g., Tx20 generation Thinkpad which are coreboot-able these days). Any kind of performance-critical stuff is clearly not the point, but it's hard to not think that smartphones have killed off this form-factor/performance tier for good reason. Makes a lot of sense as a Raspberry Pi with a screen and keyboard, but not really as a "laptop."

uniqueuid 4y ago
Absolutely. I have a clockwork pi devterm, which is arguably on the more usable end of the spectrum. In practice, the keyboard (and trackball) are much too small and cumbersome to use with joy. Another thing is that despite the very capable hardware (it has a rockchip along with plenty of RAM, I think 4 or 8GB), modern software just has so much latency. Perhaps we've been spoiled by today's ssds, but even cli software just feels much slower than what we're used to.
- selfhoster11 4y ago
  Actually I think that old CLI software is a bit faster on SSDs than modern CLI software. I would have to do some benchmarks to confirm this, but it certainly seems to be the case when booting older Linux distros on modern hardware.
- floren 4y ago
  I'm puzzled by the devterm, because it seems like if they had just made it the same size as a TRS-80 Model 100, it would have been perfect! Those were certainly portable too! Maybe they couldn't find a big enough screen?
  - RodgerTheGreat 4y ago
    Proof that off-the-shelf panels of the correct dimensions exist: https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberDeck/comments/uknqz2/for_anyone_curious_the_trs80_model_100_fits_these/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberDeck/comments/uknqz2/for_anyon... Count me among those who wish the devterm had been made full-size.
brokenkebab2 4y ago
I suppose it's not intended to be a laptop, but rather a "communicator" device as they used to call it a decade, and something ago. Small physical keyboard is worse than a full-size, but better than small on-screen one. At least, as far as me experience go. I did a lot of emailing with Nokia N900 (3.5" screen size, phys kbd), I would not do it on any modern smartphone in spite if them being wider, and longer
- philistine 4y ago
  I would bet that the ortholinear layout and simple button spacebar they put in that device kills any productivity gains you would have with a physical keyboard.
  - II2II 4y ago
    For a device of this size, I would measure productivity gains in terms of accuracy rather than speed. That is to say: I don't expect to type as fast as I would on a full size keyboard, but I would expect to be more productive than I would be with a touchscreen keyboard. Whether the ortholinear layout affects that, I don't know. Admittedly, the small spacebar buttons probably would.
  - medstrom 4y ago
    Because of unfamiliarity? A lot of keyboard nerds are now using this style, so to them it wouldn't be unfamiliar.
- cstross 4y ago
  The UK's Planet Computers already occupy that niche, albeit with a focus on Android (although Linux can be installed on their Gemini PDA and Cosmo Communicator models): I'm waiting on the (long-delayed by COVID19 factory shutdowns and supply chain dislocation) [Astro Slide 5G](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/astro-slide-5g-transformer https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/astro-slide-5g-transforme...), which looks like an interesting -- if obsolescent on delivery any month now -- smartphone/keyboard/PDA hybrid.
Aissen 4y ago
Disagreed on the performance of the GPD Win Max: at least on my (2020) model, it's much more powerful than an older laptop. But I have to agree on the other things: the tradeoffs are a bit hard to swallow. I have been able to make it my main laptop, but had to do some keyboard adaptations (in software).
- nfriedly 4y ago
  Yeah, I have a Win Max and I love it. It's the only laptop that I own, but I also have a desktop PC and employer-provided MacBook. When I travel, I bring both laptops. I've done a little bit of programming work on the Win Max for some of my open source libraries, and it will do it in a pinch, but I mostly use it for games. I'm really looking forward to the Win Max 2, in large part because of the slightly expanded keyboard.
nosianu 4y ago
It depends. I had a Psion 5 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) and spent a lot of hours typing texts and emails, and even doing "Excel" things, like creating a table for calculating "pilot things" (weight and balance, navigation). I even had a top-of-the-line 13 inch thin form factor laptop at the time but did not miss it enough, and often preferred to just take the Psion with me. My current Dell 2-in-1 15 inch makes me miss the correct key when typing far more often than the Psion (who had the glorious idea to squeeze a numeric keyboard on there??? and I could not un-select it, since this device was a replacement for a failed earlier-generation 2-in-1 that Dell could not repair, which still had a normal keyboard). I almost never missed hitting the correct key typing on the Psion 5. It worked for me because my use cases did not benefit from seeing more. Even the "Excel" tables were pretty small. If your use case benefits from seeing much more screen at a time, such as in programming, such a small form factor is no good. Even my 15 inch laptop often feels too small when using an IDEA IDE, for example.
- usrusr 4y ago
  I keep forgetting about the Psion (the 5 I think). It almost seems as if it got excluded from computing history because it just worked, did well in the little it tried to do instead striving for something more ambitious and then spectacularly failing. Dad of a friend had one I think, not because he was an eager early adopter of futuristic gadgetry but because he wasn't the kind of person who'd inevitably try to maximise spec sheet numbers per dollar, happy to spend money for nominally "inferior" tech if it just worked. I guess that might have generally been Psion's market segment, and that's all explanation needed for the relatively low visibility in computing history?
- pydry 4y ago
  I spent ages trying to find a smartphone equivalent of a psion 5mx to no avail. It was perfect for writing. The fact that theres still high demand for them decades later is telling.
- criddell 4y ago
  Did you ever use a Psion Series 7? If so how did the typing experience compare? I'd love for a new Psion-type device to come out. Something that can run for a month on a pair of AA batteries.
pluc 4y ago
I think that's precisely why RaspberryPi made a great move with their 400. If you attempt to build a whole tiny computer, you are constraining your customers in the environment you build for them. If you build a computer into a laptop-size portable keyboard however, I'm free to use whatever screens and devices I want with it. I think it's likely a mistake that PocketReform is trying to go for the productivity market with such a thing
bogwog 4y ago
I think this device would make more sense if it focused on a specific use case rather than trying to be a general purpose computer/PDA. * Handheld retro gaming device, since the only other Linux one I'm aware of is the always out of stock Steam Deck. * A handheld screen+keyboard for connecting to servers in a data center. * Educational tool for teaching kids about technology * Add a modem and mic and sell it as a Linux smartphone for the nerdiest of nerds
- usrn 4y ago
  What about a handheld Linux device for running vim and hacking? That seems to be the niche it's going for even if they're not saying it. I use my Pinephone for this when I'm on the train and that (which is likely slower than this) is plenty powerful for the task.
- vanderZwan 4y ago
  > Handheld retro gaming device, since the only other Linux one I'm aware of is the always out of stock Steam Deck. There is also the "goodness how much delay-causing problems can a single project have?" Dragonbox Pyra. Although the most recent video gives some hope it's finally about to ship (and they're going to make use of the ability to have modular upgrades so the product is hopefully not completely dead on arrival). They have my respect for hanging in there so far despite everything though. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX8U7P10_Wo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX8U7P10_Wo
  - bogwog 4y ago
    Holy shit that still exists?! I remember seeing the Pandora back in like high school or middle school and even then people were saying it would never ship. Since they’re working on a successor, I guess they did eventually start shipping at least some units…right?

uniqueuid 4y ago

Absolutely. I have a clockwork pi devterm, which is arguably on the more usable end of the spectrum. In practice, the keyboard (and trackball) are much too small and cumbersome to use with joy. Another thing is that despite the very capable hardware (it has a rockchip along with plenty of RAM, I think 4 or 8GB), modern software just has so much latency. Perhaps we've been spoiled by today's ssds, but even cli software just feels much slower than what we're used to.

selfhoster11 4y ago
Actually I think that old CLI software is a bit faster on SSDs than modern CLI software. I would have to do some benchmarks to confirm this, but it certainly seems to be the case when booting older Linux distros on modern hardware.
floren 4y ago
I'm puzzled by the devterm, because it seems like if they had just made it the same size as a TRS-80 Model 100, it would have been perfect! Those were certainly portable too! Maybe they couldn't find a big enough screen?
- RodgerTheGreat 4y ago
  Proof that off-the-shelf panels of the correct dimensions exist: https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberDeck/comments/uknqz2/for_anyone_curious_the_trs80_model_100_fits_these/ https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberDeck/comments/uknqz2/for_anyon... Count me among those who wish the devterm had been made full-size.

brokenkebab2 4y ago

I suppose it's not intended to be a laptop, but rather a "communicator" device as they used to call it a decade, and something ago. Small physical keyboard is worse than a full-size, but better than small on-screen one. At least, as far as me experience go. I did a lot of emailing with Nokia N900 (3.5" screen size, phys kbd), I would not do it on any modern smartphone in spite if them being wider, and longer

philistine 4y ago
I would bet that the ortholinear layout and simple button spacebar they put in that device kills any productivity gains you would have with a physical keyboard.
- II2II 4y ago
  For a device of this size, I would measure productivity gains in terms of accuracy rather than speed. That is to say: I don't expect to type as fast as I would on a full size keyboard, but I would expect to be more productive than I would be with a touchscreen keyboard. Whether the ortholinear layout affects that, I don't know. Admittedly, the small spacebar buttons probably would.
- medstrom 4y ago
  Because of unfamiliarity? A lot of keyboard nerds are now using this style, so to them it wouldn't be unfamiliar.
cstross 4y ago
The UK's Planet Computers already occupy that niche, albeit with a focus on Android (although Linux can be installed on their Gemini PDA and Cosmo Communicator models): I'm waiting on the (long-delayed by COVID19 factory shutdowns and supply chain dislocation) [Astro Slide 5G](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/astro-slide-5g-transformer https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/astro-slide-5g-transforme...), which looks like an interesting -- if obsolescent on delivery any month now -- smartphone/keyboard/PDA hybrid.

Aissen 4y ago

Disagreed on the performance of the GPD Win Max: at least on my (2020) model, it's much more powerful than an older laptop. But I have to agree on the other things: the tradeoffs are a bit hard to swallow. I have been able to make it my main laptop, but had to do some keyboard adaptations (in software).

nfriedly 4y ago
Yeah, I have a Win Max and I love it. It's the only laptop that I own, but I also have a desktop PC and employer-provided MacBook. When I travel, I bring both laptops. I've done a little bit of programming work on the Win Max for some of my open source libraries, and it will do it in a pinch, but I mostly use it for games. I'm really looking forward to the Win Max 2, in large part because of the slightly expanded keyboard.

nosianu 4y ago

It depends. I had a Psion 5 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Series_5) and spent a lot of hours typing texts and emails, and even doing "Excel" things, like creating a table for calculating "pilot things" (weight and balance, navigation). I even had a top-of-the-line 13 inch thin form factor laptop at the time but did not miss it enough, and often preferred to just take the Psion with me. My current Dell 2-in-1 15 inch makes me miss the correct key when typing far more often than the Psion (who had the glorious idea to squeeze a numeric keyboard on there??? and I could not un-select it, since this device was a replacement for a failed earlier-generation 2-in-1 that Dell could not repair, which still had a normal keyboard). I almost never missed hitting the correct key typing on the Psion 5. It worked for me because my use cases did not benefit from seeing more. Even the "Excel" tables were pretty small. If your use case benefits from seeing much more screen at a time, such as in programming, such a small form factor is no good. Even my 15 inch laptop often feels too small when using an IDEA IDE, for example.

usrusr 4y ago
I keep forgetting about the Psion (the 5 I think). It almost seems as if it got excluded from computing history because it just worked, did well in the little it tried to do instead striving for something more ambitious and then spectacularly failing. Dad of a friend had one I think, not because he was an eager early adopter of futuristic gadgetry but because he wasn't the kind of person who'd inevitably try to maximise spec sheet numbers per dollar, happy to spend money for nominally "inferior" tech if it just worked. I guess that might have generally been Psion's market segment, and that's all explanation needed for the relatively low visibility in computing history?
pydry 4y ago
I spent ages trying to find a smartphone equivalent of a psion 5mx to no avail. It was perfect for writing. The fact that theres still high demand for them decades later is telling.
criddell 4y ago
Did you ever use a Psion Series 7? If so how did the typing experience compare? I'd love for a new Psion-type device to come out. Something that can run for a month on a pair of AA batteries.

pluc 4y ago

I think that's precisely why RaspberryPi made a great move with their 400. If you attempt to build a whole tiny computer, you are constraining your customers in the environment you build for them. If you build a computer into a laptop-size portable keyboard however, I'm free to use whatever screens and devices I want with it. I think it's likely a mistake that PocketReform is trying to go for the productivity market with such a thing

bogwog 4y ago

I think this device would make more sense if it focused on a specific use case rather than trying to be a general purpose computer/PDA. * Handheld retro gaming device, since the only other Linux one I'm aware of is the always out of stock Steam Deck. * A handheld screen+keyboard for connecting to servers in a data center. * Educational tool for teaching kids about technology * Add a modem and mic and sell it as a Linux smartphone for the nerdiest of nerds

usrn 4y ago
What about a handheld Linux device for running vim and hacking? That seems to be the niche it's going for even if they're not saying it. I use my Pinephone for this when I'm on the train and that (which is likely slower than this) is plenty powerful for the task.
vanderZwan 4y ago
> Handheld retro gaming device, since the only other Linux one I'm aware of is the always out of stock Steam Deck. There is also the "goodness how much delay-causing problems can a single project have?" Dragonbox Pyra. Although the most recent video gives some hope it's finally about to ship (and they're going to make use of the ability to have modular upgrades so the product is hopefully not completely dead on arrival). They have my respect for hanging in there so far despite everything though. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX8U7P10_Wo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX8U7P10_Wo
- bogwog 4y ago
  Holy shit that still exists?! I remember seeing the Pandora back in like high school or middle school and even then people were saying it would never ship. Since they’re working on a successor, I guess they did eventually start shipping at least some units…right?