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That's because programming is nothing like any of those professions. How many certificates do you see for musicians, painters, photographers? Programming as at

That's because programming is nothing like any of those professions. How many certificates do you see for musicians, painters, photographers? Programming as at least as much an art as it is anything else and art is very hard to quantify in the types of tests that most certificate systems use. It requires a project based certificate which needs more organization that exists today. IMO it'd require a guild like setup that I don't see happening anytime soon.

hughesjj 4y ago
The worst part is we often can't share our artistic work with future employers due to IP concerns.
- Quikinterp 4y ago
  When so much of my resume is NDA'd it really starts to feel like "I'm a great painter, I promise, I'm just not allowed to show you any art I've made"
  - hughesjj 4y ago
    100%. On the other hand, open source culture is vastly different from proprietary culture. So many times in proprietary culture I've churned out craptastic code to meet a deadline that didn't matter for a project whose customers were straw-persons. There's definitely some projects or features I've coded which I'm glad to hide from public view. That said, artists can curate their portfolio, and unless they're presenting to a public forum, their turds won't have to see the light of day again.
MaxBarraclough 4y ago
Various non-software engineering disciplines implement chartered engineer schemes. I imagine there's an element of artistry there too, but they seem to cope.
- eikenberry 4y ago
  Curious if you'd consider this Wikipedia article on the topic to be a decent representation? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartered_Engineer_(UK) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartered_Engineer_(UK)
  - MaxBarraclough 4y ago
    That's the stuff I was thinking of, yes. As a software person I don't know enough about the scheme to comment on the quality of the article, but knowing Wikipedia I imagine it's on point. edit For a broader context than just the UK, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en...
    - eikenberry 4y ago
      Thanks!
- AstralStorm 4y ago
  Big difference is that there are standards and accepted practices in the fields in detail. Nothing like that exists in programming, not even languages or platforms. Which is why there exist multiple proprietary certifications instead focusing on specific details.
  - Jistern 4y ago
    >> Big difference is that there are standards and accepted practices in the fields in detail. I agree. After enough bridges fell down causing massive human fatalities, standards and accepted practices almost certainly "emerged." Standards and accepted practices in software engineering will emerge, as if by magic, once enough "bridges fall down."
- Jistern 4y ago
  >> I imagine there's an element of artistry there too, but they seem to cope. You are a diplomat sir; I'm merely a common street brawler.
neuronic 4y ago
Especially since the entire industry is constantly hiking on the St. James to find its inner self. Philosophies change and we notice tidbits that are good, tidbits that are bad and keep changing and renewing... Almost like fashion. At least in Europe, young people dress like a Stranger Things inspired mashup of 70s, 80s and 90s nowadays picking the best parts of those decades while leaving the 2000s and 2010s fashion in the dust. Are you gonna do a certificate on microservices? And what's that gonna help when suddenly everyone starts building some shape of monoliths again because people keep running into the "no free lunch" issues?
philwelch 4y ago
If programming is an art, then the programmer should have an audition instead of an interview. Which is approximately what leetcode is.
- AstralStorm 4y ago
  Except that would be like asking say a piano performer to run Liszt etudes mechanically, when you're hiring someone to play at your wedding. Completely different skills. Sometimes, you do need someone with these skills. These times are few. Often, a person forced to train to this test will neglect other skills or be unable to match top tier performance in the weird test. Wrong audition can be worse than no audition.
  - trashtester 4y ago
    Some programmers are like wedding singers, some play for a global audience. If you hire a piano player for large symphonic orchestra, or a famous band, and they are not already famous, you want to hear them play. Maybe one piece they chose themselves, but maybe also a piece everyone in the genre is expected to know. And if they have to improvize a bit, that may tell you a lot, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtI3IMlGRMY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtI3IMlGRMY Sometime you meet programmer like this, than you can jam with on almost any topic. Those that can repeatedly improvize their way to "leetcode" solutions, while you observe their thinking process. The "problem" with "leetcode" is that it has become too common and formalized. When people start to practice leetcode just to land the job, it suck the fun out of it, and it becomes harder to tell if the candidate is able to solve similar, but novel problems.
    - 331c8c71 4y ago
      Nah. There is a longstanding tradition of competitions in classical music, especially for piano players. The vast majority of concert pianists got some notoriety through such competitions. And no, improvisation skills are not something classical pianists are judged upon. Orchestra musicians indeed are routinely hired via a process that involves auditions, but my understanding is that applies only to those at the beginnings of their careers. Popular/rock/jazz band formation process IMO is indeed similar to how start-ups are created (i.e. rather informal process generally based on networking, though audition jams also happen to fill a specific position). I fail to see how corporate staffing is similar.
Jistern 4y ago
>> That's because programming is nothing like any of those professions. That assertion is blatantly wrong. Software engineers are like civil engineers and mechanical engineers because, ummm, yeah, of that word engineer. See? I found the following on The Internets... "California licenses Professional Engineers in the following engineering disciplines: Agricultural, Chemical, Civil, Control System, Electrical, Fire Protection, Industrial, Mechanical, Metallurgical, Nuclear, Petroleum, and Traffic." It's almost certain that software engineers will be licensed... just like many other engineers. Why? Because certification helps to ensure people who call themselves "software engineers" meet certain standards. Just like blind people normally aren't able to obtain a driver's license, people who can't solve FizzBuzz shouldn't receive a license to be software engineers. You are always free to launch a revolution in the hopes of overthrowing your national government so that you can make the regulations and laws you would like. In the meantime, when the jurisdiction you are in creates a requirement for certain software engineers to become certified (not "if" but "when"), even if the law were to apply to software engineers like you (the arrogant artistic types, you know what I mean, right?), I suppose you'll probably be grandfathered in because governments usually don't want to fight too hard to initiate new regulations and laws. Grandfathering the "crusy old-timers" like you keeps you off their collective back because, at the end of the day, you probably don't really care about the issue generally. You probably simply don't want to be bothered to spend the time and energy to become certified.

hughesjj 4y ago

The worst part is we often can't share our artistic work with future employers due to IP concerns.

Quikinterp 4y ago
When so much of my resume is NDA'd it really starts to feel like "I'm a great painter, I promise, I'm just not allowed to show you any art I've made"
- hughesjj 4y ago
  100%. On the other hand, open source culture is vastly different from proprietary culture. So many times in proprietary culture I've churned out craptastic code to meet a deadline that didn't matter for a project whose customers were straw-persons. There's definitely some projects or features I've coded which I'm glad to hide from public view. That said, artists can curate their portfolio, and unless they're presenting to a public forum, their turds won't have to see the light of day again.

MaxBarraclough 4y ago

Various non-software engineering disciplines implement chartered engineer schemes. I imagine there's an element of artistry there too, but they seem to cope.

eikenberry 4y ago
Curious if you'd consider this Wikipedia article on the topic to be a decent representation? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartered_Engineer_(UK) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartered_Engineer_(UK)
- MaxBarraclough 4y ago
  That's the stuff I was thinking of, yes. As a software person I don't know enough about the scheme to comment on the quality of the article, but knowing Wikipedia I imagine it's on point. edit For a broader context than just the UK, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en...
  - eikenberry 4y ago
    Thanks!
AstralStorm 4y ago
Big difference is that there are standards and accepted practices in the fields in detail. Nothing like that exists in programming, not even languages or platforms. Which is why there exist multiple proprietary certifications instead focusing on specific details.
- Jistern 4y ago
  >> Big difference is that there are standards and accepted practices in the fields in detail. I agree. After enough bridges fell down causing massive human fatalities, standards and accepted practices almost certainly "emerged." Standards and accepted practices in software engineering will emerge, as if by magic, once enough "bridges fall down."
Jistern 4y ago
>> I imagine there's an element of artistry there too, but they seem to cope. You are a diplomat sir; I'm merely a common street brawler.

neuronic 4y ago

Especially since the entire industry is constantly hiking on the St. James to find its inner self. Philosophies change and we notice tidbits that are good, tidbits that are bad and keep changing and renewing... Almost like fashion. At least in Europe, young people dress like a Stranger Things inspired mashup of 70s, 80s and 90s nowadays picking the best parts of those decades while leaving the 2000s and 2010s fashion in the dust. Are you gonna do a certificate on microservices? And what's that gonna help when suddenly everyone starts building some shape of monoliths again because people keep running into the "no free lunch" issues?

philwelch 4y ago

If programming is an art, then the programmer should have an audition instead of an interview. Which is approximately what leetcode is.

AstralStorm 4y ago
Except that would be like asking say a piano performer to run Liszt etudes mechanically, when you're hiring someone to play at your wedding. Completely different skills. Sometimes, you do need someone with these skills. These times are few. Often, a person forced to train to this test will neglect other skills or be unable to match top tier performance in the weird test. Wrong audition can be worse than no audition.
- trashtester 4y ago
  Some programmers are like wedding singers, some play for a global audience. If you hire a piano player for large symphonic orchestra, or a famous band, and they are not already famous, you want to hear them play. Maybe one piece they chose themselves, but maybe also a piece everyone in the genre is expected to know. And if they have to improvize a bit, that may tell you a lot, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtI3IMlGRMY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtI3IMlGRMY Sometime you meet programmer like this, than you can jam with on almost any topic. Those that can repeatedly improvize their way to "leetcode" solutions, while you observe their thinking process. The "problem" with "leetcode" is that it has become too common and formalized. When people start to practice leetcode just to land the job, it suck the fun out of it, and it becomes harder to tell if the candidate is able to solve similar, but novel problems.
  - 331c8c71 4y ago
    Nah. There is a longstanding tradition of competitions in classical music, especially for piano players. The vast majority of concert pianists got some notoriety through such competitions. And no, improvisation skills are not something classical pianists are judged upon. Orchestra musicians indeed are routinely hired via a process that involves auditions, but my understanding is that applies only to those at the beginnings of their careers. Popular/rock/jazz band formation process IMO is indeed similar to how start-ups are created (i.e. rather informal process generally based on networking, though audition jams also happen to fill a specific position). I fail to see how corporate staffing is similar.

Jistern 4y ago

>> That's because programming is nothing like any of those professions. That assertion is blatantly wrong. Software engineers are like civil engineers and mechanical engineers because, ummm, yeah, of that word engineer. See? I found the following on The Internets... "California licenses Professional Engineers in the following engineering disciplines: Agricultural, Chemical, Civil, Control System, Electrical, Fire Protection, Industrial, Mechanical, Metallurgical, Nuclear, Petroleum, and Traffic." It's almost certain that software engineers will be licensed... just like many other engineers. Why? Because certification helps to ensure people who call themselves "software engineers" meet certain standards. Just like blind people normally aren't able to obtain a driver's license, people who can't solve FizzBuzz shouldn't receive a license to be software engineers. You are always free to launch a revolution in the hopes of overthrowing your national government so that you can make the regulations and laws you would like. In the meantime, when the jurisdiction you are in creates a requirement for certain software engineers to become certified (not "if" but "when"), even if the law were to apply to software engineers like you (the arrogant artistic types, you know what I mean, right?), I suppose you'll probably be grandfathered in because governments usually don't want to fight too hard to initiate new regulations and laws. Grandfathering the "crusy old-timers" like you keeps you off their collective back because, at the end of the day, you probably don't really care about the issue generally. You probably simply don't want to be bothered to spend the time and energy to become certified.