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> The user will be free to decide? Really? Yes, they can choose to not install whatever app store or browser that they want. > or disinterested in the nuances

by stale2002 4y ago

> The user will be free to decide? Really? Yes, they can choose to not install whatever app store or browser that they want. > or disinterested in the nuances of privacy and tracking It sounds like you just don't like the user's choice. You could have just said that you disagree with what the user will do, and want to take away their choice to install whatever browser or app store that they want. Don't pretend like you care about user choice, if you are then going to pivot and say that you disagree with the choice of the user, because you think the user is dumb, or would choose different than your personal preference. Thats the problem. Just own your position. If you hate competition, and hate giving power to the user to choose whatever they want, and think that there needs to be a monopoly that anti-competitively controls everything that the user does, against their will, then just say that. Just take your mask off, and say that you think that you know better than everyone else, about their own property, and want to force everyone else to do what you want, and you want to take away their ability to choose for themselves. Don't dress it up like you were doing previously, like pretending like you care about markets. Just say that you hate the user's opinion, and you want to take away their freedoms to choose what they want to do with their own device, and stop hiding behind fake arguments that you don't believe in. > to give users absolute freedom to control all aspects of how their privacy is handled? Users will be given the choice to install whatever browser or app store that they want. If a user prefers whatever it is that you are talking about, then they are free to not install those app stores or browsers, and continue to use the Apple recommended choice. But once again, I look forward to people crying more about this soon. Because there is nothing you or Apple can do to stop users from installing alternative app stores and browser in the future, as the laws are about to be passed. Apple lost. You can't change that.

simondotau 4y ago
It is doubtful whether there's any point in me replying as little of what you've said has anything to do with anything I said. It appears you read my post and entirely misunderstood it. I will nonetheless offer a response to what you have written. Your first misunderstanding is this assumption that competition and user choice hinges on the axis of "browsers and app stores". This isn't an objective fact, it's an opinion. A different and (at minimum) equally valid opinion is that user choice can hinge on the axis of phone ecosystems. Yet another axis could hinge on apps themselves — perhaps none of us are "free" until Facebook, Instagram, etc are all required by the EU to allow anyone to write fully featured native front-ends. Perhaps the freest of all is a marketplace with a diversity of axes, which is precisely what laws tend to demolish. Your second misunderstanding is your continued smuggling in of the concept of "user choice" in a marketplace where users do not and cannot have anything remotely resembling real freedom of choice, no matter how many browser engines or app stores are available. Open source ecosystems aside, >99% of "choices" are made by the software developer exclusively. Choosing to acquire the same corporate-capitalist closed source spyware from vendor A or vendor B is an illusion of choice. Your third misunderstanding is this absurd and self-evidently false claim that people who like the status quo will be able to simply ignore the new alternative app stores and browsers. If loading alternative app stores really does become seamless, companies like Facebook and Google will have absolutely no incentive to list their apps in Apple's store. In fact given that Apple's pro-privacy policies (like App Tracking Transparency) are causing these companies to lose enormous amounts of revenue, they have a MASSIVE commercial incentive to abandon the Apple App Store. You say these laws are about to be passed. I haven't seen how any of these EU laws get around the reality of Apple's ownership of its own intellectual property. I can't imagine how the EU could force Apple to supply its intellectual property to app developers under different terms. So even if the EU does force open iOS to alternative stores, I'm really not sure how developers are going to legally build apps to put in those stores. As for your continued barbs implying that I oppose user choice, I'm wearing a "mask", that I hate markets, that I hate opinions, that I'm taking away freedoms, that I am offering "fake arguments" which I "don't believe" and will be "crying" about EU laws. All I can say is that rejecting the possibility that someone can sincerely hold a different opinion to you is disappointing — and represents a barrier to intellectual curiosity.
- stale2002 4y ago
  > . I haven't seen how any of these EU laws get around the reality of Apple's ownership of its own intellectual property. I can't imagine how the EU could force Apple to supply its intellectual property to app developers under different terms It is pretty simple. Companies that want to operate in the EU have to follow certain laws, or pay a huge fine. Technically speaking, these are requirements to operate in the market. So I guess if Apple wants to pull out of international markets, and never sell an iPhone again in the EU, that would also be an option. But, my guess is that they don't want to lose those billions of dollars. > I'm really not sure how developers are going to legally build apps to put in those stores. Its simple. Either Apple follows the law and gives app developers the ability to build apps, pays a huge fine, or leaves the entire EU market. Those are Apple's only 3 choices. And if they try a clever way to get around the law by using some sort of intellectual property strategy that you are hinting at, then they pay the huge fine, which is calculated based on a large percentage of global revenue. Enjoy thoses laws that you cannot stop! They will likely come into effect in less than a year. They can't be stopped. Apple should have addressed its own anti-competitive behavior before it got to the point where this was necessary. Its way too late now though.
  - simondotau 4y ago
    Your lack of response to any of the substantive points is noted. But you are right, we’re all going to see. It will be interesting to see how it does play out. Nobody knows for sure how the chips will fall, but I’d wager that it won’t be nearly as simplistic as you’re imagining. Especially since your version of future events doesn’t even align with mainstream analysis of the DMA.
    - stale2002 4y ago
      > Nobody knows for sure how the chips will fall We pretty much do know how things will work out, actually. That's why people made these laws. The laws were made to force Apple, and similar, to open up their app stores. And if Apple doesn't follow the law, then they will be fined billions of dollars. Because that's why they made these laws in the first place. You saying that people don't know, is cope on your part, because you can't handled that Apple lost, and cannot win against governments.

simondotau 4y ago

It is doubtful whether there's any point in me replying as little of what you've said has anything to do with anything I said. It appears you read my post and entirely misunderstood it. I will nonetheless offer a response to what you have written. Your first misunderstanding is this assumption that competition and user choice hinges on the axis of "browsers and app stores". This isn't an objective fact, it's an opinion. A different and (at minimum) equally valid opinion is that user choice can hinge on the axis of phone ecosystems. Yet another axis could hinge on apps themselves — perhaps none of us are "free" until Facebook, Instagram, etc are all required by the EU to allow anyone to write fully featured native front-ends. Perhaps the freest of all is a marketplace with a diversity of axes, which is precisely what laws tend to demolish. Your second misunderstanding is your continued smuggling in of the concept of "user choice" in a marketplace where users do not and cannot have anything remotely resembling real freedom of choice, no matter how many browser engines or app stores are available. Open source ecosystems aside, >99% of "choices" are made by the software developer exclusively. Choosing to acquire the same corporate-capitalist closed source spyware from vendor A or vendor B is an illusion of choice. Your third misunderstanding is this absurd and self-evidently false claim that people who like the status quo will be able to simply ignore the new alternative app stores and browsers. If loading alternative app stores really does become seamless, companies like Facebook and Google will have absolutely no incentive to list their apps in Apple's store. In fact given that Apple's pro-privacy policies (like App Tracking Transparency) are causing these companies to lose enormous amounts of revenue, they have a MASSIVE commercial incentive to abandon the Apple App Store. You say these laws are about to be passed. I haven't seen how any of these EU laws get around the reality of Apple's ownership of its own intellectual property. I can't imagine how the EU could force Apple to supply its intellectual property to app developers under different terms. So even if the EU does force open iOS to alternative stores, I'm really not sure how developers are going to legally build apps to put in those stores. As for your continued barbs implying that I oppose user choice, I'm wearing a "mask", that I hate markets, that I hate opinions, that I'm taking away freedoms, that I am offering "fake arguments" which I "don't believe" and will be "crying" about EU laws. All I can say is that rejecting the possibility that someone can sincerely hold a different opinion to you is disappointing — and represents a barrier to intellectual curiosity.

stale2002 4y ago
> . I haven't seen how any of these EU laws get around the reality of Apple's ownership of its own intellectual property. I can't imagine how the EU could force Apple to supply its intellectual property to app developers under different terms It is pretty simple. Companies that want to operate in the EU have to follow certain laws, or pay a huge fine. Technically speaking, these are requirements to operate in the market. So I guess if Apple wants to pull out of international markets, and never sell an iPhone again in the EU, that would also be an option. But, my guess is that they don't want to lose those billions of dollars. > I'm really not sure how developers are going to legally build apps to put in those stores. Its simple. Either Apple follows the law and gives app developers the ability to build apps, pays a huge fine, or leaves the entire EU market. Those are Apple's only 3 choices. And if they try a clever way to get around the law by using some sort of intellectual property strategy that you are hinting at, then they pay the huge fine, which is calculated based on a large percentage of global revenue. Enjoy thoses laws that you cannot stop! They will likely come into effect in less than a year. They can't be stopped. Apple should have addressed its own anti-competitive behavior before it got to the point where this was necessary. Its way too late now though.
- simondotau 4y ago
  Your lack of response to any of the substantive points is noted. But you are right, we’re all going to see. It will be interesting to see how it does play out. Nobody knows for sure how the chips will fall, but I’d wager that it won’t be nearly as simplistic as you’re imagining. Especially since your version of future events doesn’t even align with mainstream analysis of the DMA.
  - stale2002 4y ago
    > Nobody knows for sure how the chips will fall We pretty much do know how things will work out, actually. That's why people made these laws. The laws were made to force Apple, and similar, to open up their app stores. And if Apple doesn't follow the law, then they will be fined billions of dollars. Because that's why they made these laws in the first place. You saying that people don't know, is cope on your part, because you can't handled that Apple lost, and cannot win against governments.