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I do, BTW Unity/Gnome3 copied this kludge as well and they're proud of it. This is an equivalent of launching a new computer line which throws away SSDs in favo

I do, BTW Unity/Gnome3 copied this kludge as well and they're proud of it. This is an equivalent of launching a new computer line which throws away SSDs in favour of punch cards. See, "apps" made sense in the prehistoric times when single-threaded desktops with limited RAM were primarily used to do one thing at a time. But things changed. The concept of an "app" have not been making sense for a long time: you can run Gmail and Facebook in two browser windows (which together live in the same process) or you can have a single window (Chrome) launching one process per tab, or you can have a terminal with several processes running in different windows, or you can have a copy of Microsoft Word embedded inside of an Excel spreadsheet. Similarly you can have an iframe with embedded Google Maps inside of your Wordpress blog. So what's an "app" then? Microsoft correctly recognized in early 90s that the concept of a "program" or an "app" was obsolete, and modern UI should be using "window", "document" or "folder". An app is just an implementation detail: you can have 3 apps involved in rendering a single document or drawing the same window. Early smartphones couldn't handle these tricks (like multi-tasking) well, so this temporarily reincarnated idea of the "app" came back from the grave, to be happily copied by Unity just because "iOS has them". Boo.

drivebyacct2 15y ago
You say this, as every major platform migrates towards apps. Windows 8: (huge push on becoming) app centric. Mac OS X: (becoming )app centric. Android: app centric. iOS: app centric. What OS isn't? Linux. (eh, edit, this really isn't fair. Linux is as "app-centric" as I need it, though the "linux is so secure" assumption is uh, going to become fallable as its competitors approach an app-centric, isolated model. (also, X doesn't protect apps against eavesdropping, etc). Also, Ubuntu's Software Center is making the experience at the least, app-like.) I think in terms of apps. "I need to switch back to my browser". "Alt-tab". "I need to change windows in this app", "Alt-`". I guess owning a Mac got me prepared for it, but I love this new behavior in Gnome3.
- old-gregg 15y ago
  > You say this, as every major platform migrates towards apps. That's the way it goes with these damn computers. In circles. I recommend you unpack a bag of floppies, get yourself some Windows 3.1 and take a good look at Program Manager.
  - pak 15y ago
    IDK about you, but I generally have >30 or so windows open at a time. Listing them all in [modifier]-tab would be hard to navigate (by window title?) but having the icons of all the apps is actually kinda manageable. It goes in circles because computer technologies are bursty. With Win95, managing by window was reasonable because having >10 windows would usually crash the box. That's also why every window was a taskbar entry, as there was actually room for all of them... By WinXP, when virtual memory became more robust and RAM cheaper, you needed to sometimes collapse taskbar buttons by app to make them fit... And now in Win7, it's the default with just big icons. People leave way too many windows open now because closing them is a chore, and people are crappy/lazy memory budgeters. Apple realized this with iOS, and ported some relevant concepts back to Lion--apps should be able to close and restore at any time, and their open-ness is irrelevant to the user. So yeah, that's why we're back to thinking about apps; windows may be what you most often interact with, but they are no longer the mental unit of desktop management. It's now all about task-->app-->windows. As an aside, let's consider how effed up MDI is, the inconsistencies in window/toolbar management between Win Office apps, and how the Mac "one window per document, palettes appear on app activation" scheme has managed to stay remarkably consistent for over a decade.
    - silon3 15y ago
      Alt+Tab is typically about switching between last 2,3,4-5 _windows_ (max). It doesn't matter how many more windows you have. For that, it's other mechanisms (dock, taskbar, window list, search, ...)
    - gizzlon 15y ago
      "I generally have >30 or so windows open at a time. Listing them all in [modifier]-tab would be hard to navigate" Stick them on different virtual-desktops and they will not show up in the Alt-tab. I find virtual-desktops a great way to organize, that has been available for 20 (?) years
- nnq 15y ago
  ...but every major desktop platform has easily accessible configuration settings for you to change this behavior, eg. for Windows 7 I can just: right click task bar > properties > taskbar buttons: never combine ...to switch back to a window centric approach, and this combined with the ability to use virtual desktops (even on Windows with a 3rd party app) with the taskbar only showing windows from that desktop, and going even further if you like, using a multi display setup where each display has a task bar showing only the windows from that display (like having "# of virtual desktops" * "# of display" actual virtual desktops) (note: I HATE this but know people that swear by it), you can easily manage even ~50 windows without becoming visually or mentally crowded, with no need for the app-centrick view that makes you click around all the time... ...the point being that unity should try and learn more from the nice and clean but yet easily costumizable interface of Windows 7 Disclaimer: I'm mainly a Windows user, touching a Mac from time to time, and using Xfce when on *nix because it just works and doesn't stand in my way...
- VolatileVoid 15y ago
  This is the problem. This debate, right here. This is what I think the - albeit impolite - heavy-handed replies from Shuttleworth are trying to avoid. There's no one right way, and governing by pure democracy simply won't work, because everyone has a different opinion. And sure, you can make it configurable, but that's not the point - is it? If you're a power user, you'll find a way to manipulate the system to your will no matter what. But 99.9% of the users (well, when dealing with Linux admittedly that percentage is much smaller) will NEVER CHANGE THE DEFAULT. So: apps vs windows? Side launcher vs bottom launcher? Doesn't matter. Just choose one, and for the love of all things holy, be consistent.
Causification 15y ago
Modern smartphones aren't so good at it either. Think of the last time you just wanted to listen to the audio from a video file while you browsed the internet.

drivebyacct2 15y ago

You say this, as every major platform migrates towards apps. Windows 8: (huge push on becoming) app centric. Mac OS X: (becoming )app centric. Android: app centric. iOS: app centric. What OS isn't? Linux. (eh, edit, this really isn't fair. Linux is as "app-centric" as I need it, though the "linux is so secure" assumption is uh, going to become fallable as its competitors approach an app-centric, isolated model. (also, X doesn't protect apps against eavesdropping, etc). Also, Ubuntu's Software Center is making the experience at the least, app-like.) I think in terms of apps. "I need to switch back to my browser". "Alt-tab". "I need to change windows in this app", "Alt-`". I guess owning a Mac got me prepared for it, but I love this new behavior in Gnome3.

old-gregg 15y ago
> You say this, as every major platform migrates towards apps. That's the way it goes with these damn computers. In circles. I recommend you unpack a bag of floppies, get yourself some Windows 3.1 and take a good look at Program Manager.
- pak 15y ago
  IDK about you, but I generally have >30 or so windows open at a time. Listing them all in [modifier]-tab would be hard to navigate (by window title?) but having the icons of all the apps is actually kinda manageable. It goes in circles because computer technologies are bursty. With Win95, managing by window was reasonable because having >10 windows would usually crash the box. That's also why every window was a taskbar entry, as there was actually room for all of them... By WinXP, when virtual memory became more robust and RAM cheaper, you needed to sometimes collapse taskbar buttons by app to make them fit... And now in Win7, it's the default with just big icons. People leave way too many windows open now because closing them is a chore, and people are crappy/lazy memory budgeters. Apple realized this with iOS, and ported some relevant concepts back to Lion--apps should be able to close and restore at any time, and their open-ness is irrelevant to the user. So yeah, that's why we're back to thinking about apps; windows may be what you most often interact with, but they are no longer the mental unit of desktop management. It's now all about task-->app-->windows. As an aside, let's consider how effed up MDI is, the inconsistencies in window/toolbar management between Win Office apps, and how the Mac "one window per document, palettes appear on app activation" scheme has managed to stay remarkably consistent for over a decade.
  - silon3 15y ago
    Alt+Tab is typically about switching between last 2,3,4-5 _windows_ (max). It doesn't matter how many more windows you have. For that, it's other mechanisms (dock, taskbar, window list, search, ...)
  - gizzlon 15y ago
    "I generally have >30 or so windows open at a time. Listing them all in [modifier]-tab would be hard to navigate" Stick them on different virtual-desktops and they will not show up in the Alt-tab. I find virtual-desktops a great way to organize, that has been available for 20 (?) years
nnq 15y ago
...but every major desktop platform has easily accessible configuration settings for you to change this behavior, eg. for Windows 7 I can just: right click task bar > properties > taskbar buttons: never combine ...to switch back to a window centric approach, and this combined with the ability to use virtual desktops (even on Windows with a 3rd party app) with the taskbar only showing windows from that desktop, and going even further if you like, using a multi display setup where each display has a task bar showing only the windows from that display (like having "# of virtual desktops" * "# of display" actual virtual desktops) (note: I HATE this but know people that swear by it), you can easily manage even ~50 windows without becoming visually or mentally crowded, with no need for the app-centrick view that makes you click around all the time... ...the point being that unity should try and learn more from the nice and clean but yet easily costumizable interface of Windows 7 Disclaimer: I'm mainly a Windows user, touching a Mac from time to time, and using Xfce when on *nix because it just works and doesn't stand in my way...
VolatileVoid 15y ago
This is the problem. This debate, right here. This is what I think the - albeit impolite - heavy-handed replies from Shuttleworth are trying to avoid. There's no one right way, and governing by pure democracy simply won't work, because everyone has a different opinion. And sure, you can make it configurable, but that's not the point - is it? If you're a power user, you'll find a way to manipulate the system to your will no matter what. But 99.9% of the users (well, when dealing with Linux admittedly that percentage is much smaller) will NEVER CHANGE THE DEFAULT. So: apps vs windows? Side launcher vs bottom launcher? Doesn't matter. Just choose one, and for the love of all things holy, be consistent.

Causification 15y ago

Modern smartphones aren't so good at it either. Think of the last time you just wanted to listen to the audio from a video file while you browsed the internet.