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I don’t know what to make of this. While this is news to me it is not to the FBI right? Would they really cover up Saudi involvement in 9/11? Could whatever a

I don’t know what to make of this. While this is news to me it is not to the FBI right? Would they really cover up Saudi involvement in 9/11? Could whatever aims we have there (and I do realize the importance of our relationship with them) really be that important? Looking the other way on terrible things like Khashoghi’s murder is bad but you can at least understand the calculus, but 9/11? It’s hard to imagine this is something. But not impossible.

timnetworks 4y ago
Everyone was desperately trying to let the feds know there was a pending attack since at least July/August 2001, they were just strategically deaf to it.
- hackernewds 4y ago
  Best case scenario, these alerts happen so often that 99% are false positives. They regarded the 9/11 as a false positive as well. Not that that's an excuse for such a grave "error" but at least a thesis against the conspiracy theory
  - lovehashbrowns 4y ago
    It was a lot worse than that. This would’ve been a credible threat that various intelligence agencies in the US were aware of. Al-Queda was already involved in other terrorist attacks and was known to US intelligence. All the different agencies had info on a lot of the hijackers but they all kept it to themselves or the info wasn’t passed up the ladder. The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright is one of the best books on this topic and goes further into it. But I’m sure you can find other references, including the 9/11 Report. This was a massive failure by the US intelligence community. ---- Edit: I'll add some references so my comment is a little more contributory besides just "read this book." https://oig.justice.gov/sites/default/files/archive/special/0506/chapter5.htm https://oig.justice.gov/sites/default/files/archive/special/... This special report goes into it. Here is a quote from the report: "The intelligence led to a surveillance operation in Malaysia in which it was discovered that Mihdhar had a valid multiple-entry U.S. visa and photographs of Mihdhar meeting with other al Qaeda operatives were taken." The CIA had this information and should've passed it on to the FBI. (CIA operates outside the US, FBI operates inside the US.) The report continues: "We reviewed whether this information was in fact passed to the FBI by the CIA, and based on the evidence, concluded that while the CIA passed some of the information about Mihdhar to the FBI, it did not contemporaneously pass the information about Mihdhar’s U.S. visa to the FBI. We concluded it was not disclosed by the CIA until late August 2001, shortly before the September 11 terrorist attacks. We also reviewed whether FBI detailees to the CIA contemporaneously acquired this information and what action, if any, they took with respect to this information." Then there's the FAA-related stuff, which is what brought on the TSA. This is from the 9/11 Report: "The next aviation security layer was passenger prescreening. The FAA directed air carriers not to fly individuals known to pose a “direct” threat to civil aviation. But as of 9/11, the FAA’s “no-fly” list contained the names of just 12 terrorist suspects (including 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed), even though government watchlists contained the names of many thousands of known and suspected terrorists." A few paragraphs down, the report explains why the known hijackers were still allowed to fly: "Although the algorithm included hijacker profile data, at that time only pas- sengers checking bags were eligible to be selected by CAPPS for additional scrutiny. Selection entailed only having one’s checked baggage screened for explosives or held off the airplane until one had boarded. Primarily because of concern regarding potential discrimination and the impact on passenger throughput, “selectees” were no longer required to undergo extraordinary screening of their carry-on baggage as had been the case before the system was computerized in 1997. This policy change also reflected the perception that nonsuicide sabotage was the primary threat to civil aviation." This is just two examples I wanted to quickly dig up. There's an entire list of failures you can find if you read the reports or the book I mentioned earlier. It's quite good reading, I promise! Understanding the failures also gets you to understand the changes that came after 9/11. This includes things like the PATRIOT act, TSA, Department of Homeland Security (DHS), etc. DHS is meant to force the intelligence communities to share intel with each other rather than "compete" for it.
    - AtlasBarfed 4y ago
      I would love to damn the Bush Administration of ignoring the warnings so they had a casus belli. But the Bush Administration hated the clintons so much that they ignored all intelligence handovers and warnings that came from holdover administration personnel. In this case it was incompetence. But they woke up REAL FAST to using it to their ends and desires.
      - lovehashbrowns 4y ago
        Of course they woke up! And now we'll likely be stuck with things like the PATRIOT Act for the rest of this country's existence. Just can't ever see it taken away.
stevenwoo 4y ago
Based on the article, if everything is true (or beyond ordinary coincidence which it argues), what other explanation is possible?
- WillPostForFood 4y ago
  People either have short memories, or were too young, but there was a legitimately bipartisan, independent commission that looked into this. Most of the info in this article is from that commission's investigation, with a few interesting new connections added. https://9-11commission.gov/report/ https://9-11commission.gov/report/ There was no coverup, it is just complicated. No doubt that there were elements in the Saudi govt that helped. That doesn't mean it was Saudi policy. Same with Bin Laden hiding in Pakistan.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - stevenwoo 4y ago
    Yes, but that commission report was published in 2004 with heavily redacted and edited documents and the way that every subsequent administration has stonewalled release of any other tidbit of information makes it look like they have something to hide about a Saudi Arabian connection. Stuff has had to be dragged out over the decades to even piece together what actually happened in detail. Maybe there's nothing there. But we won't know at this rate for 100 years. Even with discovery by the attorneys for the victims of the 9/11 attacks uncovering more information over the years, we did not know the identity of Mussaed al-Jarrah until the FBI under the Trump administration accidentally released documents with his name not redacted. https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/in-court-filing-fbi-accidentally-reveals-name-of-saudi-official-suspected-of-directing-support-for-911-hijackers-224555851.html https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/in-court-filing-fbi-accident... Saudi Arabia later admitted it had been funding terrorists for generations supposedly as a counter to the former Soviet Union in Afghanistan and Iran, it only recently has tried to stop the spigot of money - the 9/11 commission made like this was not by design but outside forces somehow corrupting the intent - that they got this so wrong seems like something out of work of fiction https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/saudi-arabia-terrorism-funding-214241/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/saudi-arabia...

timnetworks 4y ago

Everyone was desperately trying to let the feds know there was a pending attack since at least July/August 2001, they were just strategically deaf to it.

hackernewds 4y ago
Best case scenario, these alerts happen so often that 99% are false positives. They regarded the 9/11 as a false positive as well. Not that that's an excuse for such a grave "error" but at least a thesis against the conspiracy theory
- lovehashbrowns 4y ago
  It was a lot worse than that. This would’ve been a credible threat that various intelligence agencies in the US were aware of. Al-Queda was already involved in other terrorist attacks and was known to US intelligence. All the different agencies had info on a lot of the hijackers but they all kept it to themselves or the info wasn’t passed up the ladder. The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright is one of the best books on this topic and goes further into it. But I’m sure you can find other references, including the 9/11 Report. This was a massive failure by the US intelligence community. ---- Edit: I'll add some references so my comment is a little more contributory besides just "read this book." https://oig.justice.gov/sites/default/files/archive/special/0506/chapter5.htm https://oig.justice.gov/sites/default/files/archive/special/... This special report goes into it. Here is a quote from the report: "The intelligence led to a surveillance operation in Malaysia in which it was discovered that Mihdhar had a valid multiple-entry U.S. visa and photographs of Mihdhar meeting with other al Qaeda operatives were taken." The CIA had this information and should've passed it on to the FBI. (CIA operates outside the US, FBI operates inside the US.) The report continues: "We reviewed whether this information was in fact passed to the FBI by the CIA, and based on the evidence, concluded that while the CIA passed some of the information about Mihdhar to the FBI, it did not contemporaneously pass the information about Mihdhar’s U.S. visa to the FBI. We concluded it was not disclosed by the CIA until late August 2001, shortly before the September 11 terrorist attacks. We also reviewed whether FBI detailees to the CIA contemporaneously acquired this information and what action, if any, they took with respect to this information." Then there's the FAA-related stuff, which is what brought on the TSA. This is from the 9/11 Report: "The next aviation security layer was passenger prescreening. The FAA directed air carriers not to fly individuals known to pose a “direct” threat to civil aviation. But as of 9/11, the FAA’s “no-fly” list contained the names of just 12 terrorist suspects (including 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed), even though government watchlists contained the names of many thousands of known and suspected terrorists." A few paragraphs down, the report explains why the known hijackers were still allowed to fly: "Although the algorithm included hijacker profile data, at that time only pas- sengers checking bags were eligible to be selected by CAPPS for additional scrutiny. Selection entailed only having one’s checked baggage screened for explosives or held off the airplane until one had boarded. Primarily because of concern regarding potential discrimination and the impact on passenger throughput, “selectees” were no longer required to undergo extraordinary screening of their carry-on baggage as had been the case before the system was computerized in 1997. This policy change also reflected the perception that nonsuicide sabotage was the primary threat to civil aviation." This is just two examples I wanted to quickly dig up. There's an entire list of failures you can find if you read the reports or the book I mentioned earlier. It's quite good reading, I promise! Understanding the failures also gets you to understand the changes that came after 9/11. This includes things like the PATRIOT act, TSA, Department of Homeland Security (DHS), etc. DHS is meant to force the intelligence communities to share intel with each other rather than "compete" for it.
  - AtlasBarfed 4y ago
    I would love to damn the Bush Administration of ignoring the warnings so they had a casus belli. But the Bush Administration hated the clintons so much that they ignored all intelligence handovers and warnings that came from holdover administration personnel. In this case it was incompetence. But they woke up REAL FAST to using it to their ends and desires.
    - lovehashbrowns 4y ago
      Of course they woke up! And now we'll likely be stuck with things like the PATRIOT Act for the rest of this country's existence. Just can't ever see it taken away.

stevenwoo 4y ago

Based on the article, if everything is true (or beyond ordinary coincidence which it argues), what other explanation is possible?

WillPostForFood 4y ago
People either have short memories, or were too young, but there was a legitimately bipartisan, independent commission that looked into this. Most of the info in this article is from that commission's investigation, with a few interesting new connections added. https://9-11commission.gov/report/ https://9-11commission.gov/report/ There was no coverup, it is just complicated. No doubt that there were elements in the Saudi govt that helped. That doesn't mean it was Saudi policy. Same with Bin Laden hiding in Pakistan.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- stevenwoo 4y ago
  Yes, but that commission report was published in 2004 with heavily redacted and edited documents and the way that every subsequent administration has stonewalled release of any other tidbit of information makes it look like they have something to hide about a Saudi Arabian connection. Stuff has had to be dragged out over the decades to even piece together what actually happened in detail. Maybe there's nothing there. But we won't know at this rate for 100 years. Even with discovery by the attorneys for the victims of the 9/11 attacks uncovering more information over the years, we did not know the identity of Mussaed al-Jarrah until the FBI under the Trump administration accidentally released documents with his name not redacted. https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/in-court-filing-fbi-accidentally-reveals-name-of-saudi-official-suspected-of-directing-support-for-911-hijackers-224555851.html https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/in-court-filing-fbi-accident... Saudi Arabia later admitted it had been funding terrorists for generations supposedly as a counter to the former Soviet Union in Afghanistan and Iran, it only recently has tried to stop the spigot of money - the 9/11 commission made like this was not by design but outside forces somehow corrupting the intent - that they got this so wrong seems like something out of work of fiction https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/saudi-arabia-terrorism-funding-214241/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/saudi-arabia...