5 ms·

While I have no argument with the conclusion, I don't see (in brief skimming of the linked Neurology article) anything to address the possibility that it works

While I have no argument with the conclusion, I don't see (in brief skimming of the linked Neurology article) anything to address the possibility that it works the opposite way. Dealing with lots of other people can be cognitively taxing, and people who isolate themselves from others are perhaps doing so because they know they aren't very good at it. Again, I believe the basic conclusion that isolation is bad for your brain is likely true, but I'm not sure I agree that this is strong evidence for it. People who sit in wheelchairs a lot have low leg strength; the wheelchairs aren't usually causing it.

mountainriver 4y ago
I’d be curious about this as well, my personal experience is I think a lot clearer alone, just can’t be isolated for too long
- raducu 4y ago
  I'm quite content with minimal human contact. I only really miss my daughter and wife and once in a blue moon some close friends or family. But I absolutely can notice that I get kind of feral after long isolation periods, even in terms of language abilities -- but I only notice it when being with other people again, not while alone; while alone I feel much clearer as you said. My point being what you feel about your cognitive processes/world might not be objective reality.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
gsatic 4y ago
It doesn't matter. "Bad" is always relative to what problems the chimp brain spends its time solving.
anon291 4y ago
They should have done a similar test on people during COVID and compared against their past result.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Anecdotally, as a straight male in his 30s living abroad in a foreign country, I can say that the breakup and isolation during Covid lockdowns, plus the departure of a few close friends, has depressed me to destruction, that even therapy didn't help much, and I seem to get worse by the month. And I thought I was an introvert who loved to spend time alone. Which I do, but turns out I also need social interactions to survive, and since I always had it at my disposal, I only noticed the deficiency once I lost it and couldn't get it back. While I do take part in a couple of local regular sports group activities after work, making strong friendships or relationships from those has proven tough to nearly impossible. Seems like nearly everyone in their 30s with a full time job, already has kids or a romantic relationship or has a long term friend group from their youth that occupies their free time so they can't suddenly accommodate an extra +1. I can't see it getting better. I feel like a meatbag drone grinding away on shitty codebases in front of a screen 8h/day, just to pay rent and taxes for the next 40 years and die alone after, and compensate for the loneliness by traveling and sports. Only comfort is I don't suffer any grave physical illness so at least I got that going for me. Maybe I should switch careers to something lower paying that has more human interaction and a better female/male ratio than SW development.
  - samsquire 4y ago
    Old people are often lonely for this reason. They spend all their life with one partner and they pass away or separate and they realise they have no friends or group to socialise with. People are difficult to get to know but they say if you get to know someone who is good and not a bad person you immediately love them. As a passing stranger reading your dilemma I also reject working until you die as a lifestyle choice. Everyone has the same 24 hours available to them. You don't have to accept the status quo if you don't want to. But you need to accept some risks. People have higher standards for others than for themselves. So getting to know people people put up walls of standards that they themselves don't abide. Happy to talk tech spiritual stuff with you if you want someone to talk to.
    - arinlen 4y ago
deltaonefour 4y ago
>Again, I believe the basic conclusion that isolation is bad for your brain is likely true, but I'm not sure I agree that this is strong evidence for it. The entire human body responds to moderate stress by improving itself. Studies have shown that fasting, exercise, and "cognitive taxation" aka learning through practice improves related areas and there is causative connections here. I think this, plus the correlation from the study is effectively strong evidence for isolation being causative to lower intelligence. We'd have to run an actual causative experiment here to establish this with any sort of finality though.
Hani1337 4y ago
define good and bad??? who's to say being social and popular makes you good at cognition? what cognitive task we talking about? were tesla and einstein sociable? were they popular? this is biased bs
atleta 4y ago
Without reading the linked article: they have accounted for this by following up for 12 years and finding that isolated people have 26% higher risk of dementia. Which points to the direction that it's isolation causing the function loss and not simply a lack of function causing isolation. (Though, of course, that direction may very well be there too.)
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  I don't see that as evidence? Incipient dementia causes self-isolation - that could be the vector as well.
  - atleta 4y ago
    As I said, in the experiment it worked in the other direction: isolated people were more likely to suffer from dementia 12 years later.
    - JoeAltmaier 4y ago
      And could that have meant their brain was wired differently to start with? Not everyone suffers from dementia - do the changes in the brain affect behavior all our lives?
      - atleta 4y ago
        I'm not sure what your point is. The research found a correlation between isolation and dementia and it also found evidence that the former causes the latter and not the other way around (which you argued could also be the case, in your first comment).
dayvid 4y ago
Stress can help build capabilities, though. E.g. people who run for the first time may get some paid, but if they keep at it in a smart way, it's just their body adjusting to the new demands placed on it. If they never do anything, their body gets less and less resilient. Obviously there are some people who may have conditions that make it impossible or require medical intervention to perform certain physical or social activities. The vast majority of people can do these things and don't have extreme social or physical complications. It's more a matter of some willpower or having a smooth introduction and gradual or manageable increase of discomfort.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >Stress can help build capabilities, though. A huuuuge asterix is needed there. Stress can help build you up, only as long as it's controllable, within the tolerable limits of each individual and is paired enough quality sleep and rest when needed (like going to the gym) Otherwise, stress outside the limits and control of the individual, with bad sleep and little rest, as they usually go hand in hand, leads to burnout, depression, eating disorders, substance abuse, homelessness, etc.
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    Frequency and sleep are certainly important factors. Stressing your bones from time to time lead to hairline fractures that get repaired and cause your body to strengthen the area, leading to stronger bones. But doing it faster than the repairs catch up leads to a stress fracture [1]. That happens even from what we consider normal loads (running, jumping, etc) if you aren't used to them and then suddenly experience them very frequently. The same is true for countless other physical and psychological processes. Some stress is great, but you have to be very careful if you lack buildup or recovery periods. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_fracture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_fracture
  - 0xcde4c3db 4y ago
    And even if you do everything right, there's never a guarantee that any given stressor will actually trigger a big enough set of adaptations to be a net positive. Human psychology and physiology do not operate on some kind of magic quid-pro-quo system where ability or health exist to reward effort or discipline; sometimes stuff just doesn't work the way you want or expect and you have to deal with it any way you can.
goldphotograph1 4y ago

mountainriver 4y ago

I’d be curious about this as well, my personal experience is I think a lot clearer alone, just can’t be isolated for too long

raducu 4y ago
I'm quite content with minimal human contact. I only really miss my daughter and wife and once in a blue moon some close friends or family. But I absolutely can notice that I get kind of feral after long isolation periods, even in terms of language abilities -- but I only notice it when being with other people again, not while alone; while alone I feel much clearer as you said. My point being what you feel about your cognitive processes/world might not be objective reality.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

gsatic 4y ago

It doesn't matter. "Bad" is always relative to what problems the chimp brain spends its time solving.

anon291 4y ago

They should have done a similar test on people during COVID and compared against their past result.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Anecdotally, as a straight male in his 30s living abroad in a foreign country, I can say that the breakup and isolation during Covid lockdowns, plus the departure of a few close friends, has depressed me to destruction, that even therapy didn't help much, and I seem to get worse by the month. And I thought I was an introvert who loved to spend time alone. Which I do, but turns out I also need social interactions to survive, and since I always had it at my disposal, I only noticed the deficiency once I lost it and couldn't get it back. While I do take part in a couple of local regular sports group activities after work, making strong friendships or relationships from those has proven tough to nearly impossible. Seems like nearly everyone in their 30s with a full time job, already has kids or a romantic relationship or has a long term friend group from their youth that occupies their free time so they can't suddenly accommodate an extra +1. I can't see it getting better. I feel like a meatbag drone grinding away on shitty codebases in front of a screen 8h/day, just to pay rent and taxes for the next 40 years and die alone after, and compensate for the loneliness by traveling and sports. Only comfort is I don't suffer any grave physical illness so at least I got that going for me. Maybe I should switch careers to something lower paying that has more human interaction and a better female/male ratio than SW development.
- samsquire 4y ago
  Old people are often lonely for this reason. They spend all their life with one partner and they pass away or separate and they realise they have no friends or group to socialise with. People are difficult to get to know but they say if you get to know someone who is good and not a bad person you immediately love them. As a passing stranger reading your dilemma I also reject working until you die as a lifestyle choice. Everyone has the same 24 hours available to them. You don't have to accept the status quo if you don't want to. But you need to accept some risks. People have higher standards for others than for themselves. So getting to know people people put up walls of standards that they themselves don't abide. Happy to talk tech spiritual stuff with you if you want someone to talk to.
  - arinlen 4y ago

deltaonefour 4y ago

>Again, I believe the basic conclusion that isolation is bad for your brain is likely true, but I'm not sure I agree that this is strong evidence for it. The entire human body responds to moderate stress by improving itself. Studies have shown that fasting, exercise, and "cognitive taxation" aka learning through practice improves related areas and there is causative connections here. I think this, plus the correlation from the study is effectively strong evidence for isolation being causative to lower intelligence. We'd have to run an actual causative experiment here to establish this with any sort of finality though.

Hani1337 4y ago

define good and bad??? who's to say being social and popular makes you good at cognition? what cognitive task we talking about? were tesla and einstein sociable? were they popular? this is biased bs

atleta 4y ago

Without reading the linked article: they have accounted for this by following up for 12 years and finding that isolated people have 26% higher risk of dementia. Which points to the direction that it's isolation causing the function loss and not simply a lack of function causing isolation. (Though, of course, that direction may very well be there too.)

JoeAltmaier 4y ago
I don't see that as evidence? Incipient dementia causes self-isolation - that could be the vector as well.
- atleta 4y ago
  As I said, in the experiment it worked in the other direction: isolated people were more likely to suffer from dementia 12 years later.
  - JoeAltmaier 4y ago
    And could that have meant their brain was wired differently to start with? Not everyone suffers from dementia - do the changes in the brain affect behavior all our lives?
    - atleta 4y ago
      I'm not sure what your point is. The research found a correlation between isolation and dementia and it also found evidence that the former causes the latter and not the other way around (which you argued could also be the case, in your first comment).

dayvid 4y ago

Stress can help build capabilities, though. E.g. people who run for the first time may get some paid, but if they keep at it in a smart way, it's just their body adjusting to the new demands placed on it. If they never do anything, their body gets less and less resilient. Obviously there are some people who may have conditions that make it impossible or require medical intervention to perform certain physical or social activities. The vast majority of people can do these things and don't have extreme social or physical complications. It's more a matter of some willpower or having a smooth introduction and gradual or manageable increase of discomfort.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>Stress can help build capabilities, though. A huuuuge asterix is needed there. Stress can help build you up, only as long as it's controllable, within the tolerable limits of each individual and is paired enough quality sleep and rest when needed (like going to the gym) Otherwise, stress outside the limits and control of the individual, with bad sleep and little rest, as they usually go hand in hand, leads to burnout, depression, eating disorders, substance abuse, homelessness, etc.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  Frequency and sleep are certainly important factors. Stressing your bones from time to time lead to hairline fractures that get repaired and cause your body to strengthen the area, leading to stronger bones. But doing it faster than the repairs catch up leads to a stress fracture [1]. That happens even from what we consider normal loads (running, jumping, etc) if you aren't used to them and then suddenly experience them very frequently. The same is true for countless other physical and psychological processes. Some stress is great, but you have to be very careful if you lack buildup or recovery periods. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_fracture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_fracture
- 0xcde4c3db 4y ago
  And even if you do everything right, there's never a guarantee that any given stressor will actually trigger a big enough set of adaptations to be a net positive. Human psychology and physiology do not operate on some kind of magic quid-pro-quo system where ability or health exist to reward effort or discipline; sometimes stuff just doesn't work the way you want or expect and you have to deal with it any way you can.

goldphotograph1 4y ago