4 ms·

Except there are well-researched and medically-accepted facts about fats. So, while somebody may decide to push a diet which contradicts those facts, it doesn't

by bryans 4y ago

Except there are well-researched and medically-accepted facts about fats. So, while somebody may decide to push a diet which contradicts those facts, it doesn't turn the facts into political positions. It does, however, mean that the person pushing the contradictory diet is pushing a political agenda. And in fact, the primary (and only) instigators of anti-fat ideology were the sugar industry[1] and some political bad actors, which turned out to be lobby-funded medical quackery directly resulting in disease and death for tens of millions of people. Facts matter. Let's not mislabel or dismiss them just because they're not convenient for everyone. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/well/eat/how-the-sugar-industry-shifted-blame-to-fat.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/well/eat/how-the-sugar-in...

n8cpdx 4y ago
That’s the trendy opinion for now. This seems to be cyclical. Around the same time as the link you cited: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/29/opinion/saturated-fat-is-bad.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/29/opinion/saturated-fat-is-... This article delves into specific categories within “saturated fat” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/05/well/eat/is-the-saturated-fat-in-chocolate-as-bad-as-the-fat-in-meat.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/05/well/eat/is-the-saturated... Two years later: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/well/good-fats-bad-fats.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/well/good-fats-bad-fats.h... A few years after that: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/28/well/eat/low-carb-diet-heart-health.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/28/well/eat/low-carb-diet-he... Citing the NYT isn’t really helpful since you can find basically every diet fad/trend in their pages. Personal experience tells me that sugar and refined carbs make it harder to maintain a healthy weight, and that’s enough for me. But that’s not a “facts matter” frame. An anti-fat/pro-carb person could list out a whole book worth of facts leading in exactly the wrong direction: https://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Diet-Groundbreaking-Permanent/dp/1250199220 https://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Diet-Groundbreaking-Permanent... Facts do matter, but in the case of nutrition, facts are a dime a dozen and we clearly have not as a society arrived at a final answer. P.S. the sugar lobby explanation is uncompelling because all other industries also have lobbyists; I would think the beef and pork lobbyists would not be doing their job if they let you think that saturated fat is unhealthy.
- bryans 4y ago
  > That’s the trendy opinion for now. This seems to be cyclical. Citing the NYT isn’t really helpful since you can find basically every diet fad/trend in their pages. I didn't cite the NYT as information about dietary facts. I cited a famous NYT article which unveiled the details of a massively concerted effort by bad actors to invent fake research and then force it onto an entire country as medical fact. The article doesn't make any claims about diets, but instead enumerates the actions of pro-sugar conspirators. So you've concocted this entire argument around something neither I nor the article said. Your NYT links consist of a letter to the editor, an online Q&A column, one article which specifically discuss how unsaturated fats are good and saturated fats aren't actually bad in moderation, and one article which discusses the business optics of marketing fat/sugar usage from the perspective of an ice cream company. None of what you presented shows inconsistency, and it certainly doesn't qualify as evidence that NYT is bandwagoning or waffling. > Personal experience tells me that sugar and refined carbs make it harder to maintain a healthy weight, and that’s enough for me. But that’s not a “facts matter” frame. An anti-fat/pro-carb person could list out a whole book worth of facts leading in exactly the wrong direction Writing a book of personal interpretations and opinions is not the same thing as practicing scientific research. You're declaring that the very existence of detractors from corroborated research magically turns all of those widely-accepted conclusions into "dime a dozen" opinions. If that were how things worked, the very concept of factual information would cease to have any meaning.
  - n8cpdx 4y ago
    If it is settled science, I would hope you could find and share authoritative evidence that it is. What I’ve seen over the years (and I’m not that old) is that the mainstream “consensus” changes every 10-15 years, and that many landmark/foundational studies eventually turn out to be industry-funded/manipulated (sometimes decades later) or products of misconduct/incompetence (e.g. https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/6/20/17464906/mediterranean-diet-science-health-predimed https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/6/20/17464906/me...) I’ve read the book I linked, and every single claim is backed up by research, and many of the cited studies are high quality meta reviews. That doesn’t mean the conclusions are good, just that there is a very deep pool of contradictory findings to pull from. I’m with you that some level of fat intake is healthy and that sugar/starch are suspect, but I just think it is dishonest or misleading to say it is “fact” or settled science given the uncertainty and ongoing changing nature of the scientific findings. P.S. the NYT was years late to the party on the shocking sugar revelations; https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2012/10/sugar-industry-lies-campaign/ https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2012/10/sugar-indust...

by bryans 4y ago

n8cpdx 4y ago

That’s the trendy opinion for now. This seems to be cyclical. Around the same time as the link you cited: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/29/opinion/saturated-fat-is-bad.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/29/opinion/saturated-fat-is-... This article delves into specific categories within “saturated fat” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/05/well/eat/is-the-saturated-fat-in-chocolate-as-bad-as-the-fat-in-meat.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/05/well/eat/is-the-saturated... Two years later: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/well/good-fats-bad-fats.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/well/good-fats-bad-fats.h... A few years after that: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/28/well/eat/low-carb-diet-heart-health.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/28/well/eat/low-carb-diet-he... Citing the NYT isn’t really helpful since you can find basically every diet fad/trend in their pages. Personal experience tells me that sugar and refined carbs make it harder to maintain a healthy weight, and that’s enough for me. But that’s not a “facts matter” frame. An anti-fat/pro-carb person could list out a whole book worth of facts leading in exactly the wrong direction: https://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Diet-Groundbreaking-Permanent/dp/1250199220 https://www.amazon.com/How-Not-Diet-Groundbreaking-Permanent... Facts do matter, but in the case of nutrition, facts are a dime a dozen and we clearly have not as a society arrived at a final answer. P.S. the sugar lobby explanation is uncompelling because all other industries also have lobbyists; I would think the beef and pork lobbyists would not be doing their job if they let you think that saturated fat is unhealthy.

bryans 4y ago
> That’s the trendy opinion for now. This seems to be cyclical. Citing the NYT isn’t really helpful since you can find basically every diet fad/trend in their pages. I didn't cite the NYT as information about dietary facts. I cited a famous NYT article which unveiled the details of a massively concerted effort by bad actors to invent fake research and then force it onto an entire country as medical fact. The article doesn't make any claims about diets, but instead enumerates the actions of pro-sugar conspirators. So you've concocted this entire argument around something neither I nor the article said. Your NYT links consist of a letter to the editor, an online Q&A column, one article which specifically discuss how unsaturated fats are good and saturated fats aren't actually bad in moderation, and one article which discusses the business optics of marketing fat/sugar usage from the perspective of an ice cream company. None of what you presented shows inconsistency, and it certainly doesn't qualify as evidence that NYT is bandwagoning or waffling. > Personal experience tells me that sugar and refined carbs make it harder to maintain a healthy weight, and that’s enough for me. But that’s not a “facts matter” frame. An anti-fat/pro-carb person could list out a whole book worth of facts leading in exactly the wrong direction Writing a book of personal interpretations and opinions is not the same thing as practicing scientific research. You're declaring that the very existence of detractors from corroborated research magically turns all of those widely-accepted conclusions into "dime a dozen" opinions. If that were how things worked, the very concept of factual information would cease to have any meaning.
- n8cpdx 4y ago
  If it is settled science, I would hope you could find and share authoritative evidence that it is. What I’ve seen over the years (and I’m not that old) is that the mainstream “consensus” changes every 10-15 years, and that many landmark/foundational studies eventually turn out to be industry-funded/manipulated (sometimes decades later) or products of misconduct/incompetence (e.g. https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/6/20/17464906/mediterranean-diet-science-health-predimed https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/6/20/17464906/me...) I’ve read the book I linked, and every single claim is backed up by research, and many of the cited studies are high quality meta reviews. That doesn’t mean the conclusions are good, just that there is a very deep pool of contradictory findings to pull from. I’m with you that some level of fat intake is healthy and that sugar/starch are suspect, but I just think it is dishonest or misleading to say it is “fact” or settled science given the uncertainty and ongoing changing nature of the scientific findings. P.S. the NYT was years late to the party on the shocking sugar revelations; https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2012/10/sugar-industry-lies-campaign/ https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2012/10/sugar-indust...