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No one is forced to use Apple products at all. Choosing an Apple product over non-apple products is a choice. There is extensive competition with Apple produc

No one is forced to use Apple products at all. Choosing an Apple product over non-apple products is a choice. There is extensive competition with Apple products. Choosing to buy an iPad, and being upset that they can't install linux on it, failed to do any product research before buying the product. Many people, myself included, choose to use Apple products in part BECAUSE of how those products work and function, today. I don't want to install additional browsers, app stores, or other crap on my phone, I just want it to work well, out of the box with reasonably high security. For my needs Apple products provide that today. If Apple's products don't fit your needs, the solution is trivial - don't buy Apple products.

stale2002 4y ago
> Apple's products don't fit your needs, the solution is trivial - don't buy Apple products. If you don't want to install alternative app stores or browsers, then you should simply choose to not install them. With the new digital markets act being passed in the EU, everyone will be able to install whatever app store or browser that they want. And you can't complain because you should listen to your own advice by not installing those other app stores or browsers.
- simondotau 4y ago
  Does this digital markets act apply to game consoles and smart TV platforms? What about in-dash car systems?
  - stale2002 4y ago
    The digital markets act only applies to certain companies, called "gatekeepers" that are large enough, have a certain very large amount of users, and have enough market power. Generally speaking, the purpose of anti-trust law is not to effect small players, who do not control any markets. Instead, the purpose of anti-trust law is to prevent multi-trillion dollar companies who control half of a duopoly, from doing anti-competitive actions. So, for the examples that you gave, if those markets became multi-trillion dollar markets, in 2 company duopolies, then there would be laws created that would apply to them. But before that happens, there is no need.
    - simondotau 4y ago
      But sure, instead of having phone manufacturers compete with open competition in an open marketplace, let's have governments decide how my phone works. That sounds like a great idea. (Note: that is sarcasm.) I wonder, is the EU promising to replace Apple's effective private regulatory environment around privacy control with something its equal or better? Given that "open markets" in software isn't a concept that respects national borders, I don't see how they could. Or are they just going to crack the nut open at the behest of lobbying efforts by other (mostly foreign) multi-billion dollar companies who stand to gain?
      - stale2002 4y ago
        The point being, that in a situation where there is a 2 company duopoly, with multi trillion dollar companies, then there is going to be laws that regulate these multi trillion dollar companies that have significant market power. > compete with open competition They can compete all they want. They simply can't use their market power to anti competitively prevent users from installing other app stores or browsers, of their own choice. A user is free to not install other app stores or browsers, if they don't want. > let's have governments decide how my phone works It is actually the user who will now be free to decide which app stores or browsers run on their own phone. Feel free to not install them, if you don't like those options. Anyways this conversation doesn't much matter because the laws are about to be passed. I look forward to people crying about being unable to prevent other people from doing what they want with their own phone in the future. Because there is nothing you or apple can do now, to prevent people from installing other app stores or browsers, on their own phone, pretty soon. The app store/browser war is over. Apple lost. And users will soon be able to actually do what they want with their own phone, and Apple will no longer be able to force users, against their will, from install other app stores or browsers.
        simondotau 4y ago
        > It is actually the user who will now be free to decide The user will be free to decide? Really? The user, most of whom are understandably ignorant to and/or disinterested in the nuances of privacy and tracking, won't remain captive to decisions implemented by programmers, hidden in code, concealed behind encryption and not exposed as a choice? Free to decide. I can't fathom that anyone actually might seriously believe this overly simplistic fairytale. This kind of freedom doesn't exist and the kind of rules the EU plans to implement don't change that. All they do is shuffle around influence from one set of global billion-dollar companies to another set of global billion-dollar companies. Or are you telling me that the EU will require mobile operating systems, app stores on those operating systems and all third party apps running on those operating systems to give users absolute freedom to control all aspects of how their privacy is handled? At least now we have Apple in a position to (and motivated to) enforce privacy standards on behalf of its ecosystem. It's not often that capitalistic forces are so squarely focused at the consumer interest; dismiss it at our collective peril.
adamius 4y ago
This attitude is exactly why Apple should be compelled to allow different browsers. You've shown me the door. Guess what? We took it. We've opened a new door right through the wall. Hello there! Lightning cables from Apple are equally bad. Guess what? Competitor cables are more resilient in real world use. But yes, bring on usb.
alickz 4y ago
>I don't want to install additional browsers, app stores, or other crap on my phone, I just want it to work well, out of the box with reasonably high security. I don't see these as mutually exclusive.

stale2002 4y ago

> Apple's products don't fit your needs, the solution is trivial - don't buy Apple products. If you don't want to install alternative app stores or browsers, then you should simply choose to not install them. With the new digital markets act being passed in the EU, everyone will be able to install whatever app store or browser that they want. And you can't complain because you should listen to your own advice by not installing those other app stores or browsers.

simondotau 4y ago
Does this digital markets act apply to game consoles and smart TV platforms? What about in-dash car systems?
- stale2002 4y ago
  The digital markets act only applies to certain companies, called "gatekeepers" that are large enough, have a certain very large amount of users, and have enough market power. Generally speaking, the purpose of anti-trust law is not to effect small players, who do not control any markets. Instead, the purpose of anti-trust law is to prevent multi-trillion dollar companies who control half of a duopoly, from doing anti-competitive actions. So, for the examples that you gave, if those markets became multi-trillion dollar markets, in 2 company duopolies, then there would be laws created that would apply to them. But before that happens, there is no need.
  - simondotau 4y ago
    But sure, instead of having phone manufacturers compete with open competition in an open marketplace, let's have governments decide how my phone works. That sounds like a great idea. (Note: that is sarcasm.) I wonder, is the EU promising to replace Apple's effective private regulatory environment around privacy control with something its equal or better? Given that "open markets" in software isn't a concept that respects national borders, I don't see how they could. Or are they just going to crack the nut open at the behest of lobbying efforts by other (mostly foreign) multi-billion dollar companies who stand to gain?
    - stale2002 4y ago
      The point being, that in a situation where there is a 2 company duopoly, with multi trillion dollar companies, then there is going to be laws that regulate these multi trillion dollar companies that have significant market power. > compete with open competition They can compete all they want. They simply can't use their market power to anti competitively prevent users from installing other app stores or browsers, of their own choice. A user is free to not install other app stores or browsers, if they don't want. > let's have governments decide how my phone works It is actually the user who will now be free to decide which app stores or browsers run on their own phone. Feel free to not install them, if you don't like those options. Anyways this conversation doesn't much matter because the laws are about to be passed. I look forward to people crying about being unable to prevent other people from doing what they want with their own phone in the future. Because there is nothing you or apple can do now, to prevent people from installing other app stores or browsers, on their own phone, pretty soon. The app store/browser war is over. Apple lost. And users will soon be able to actually do what they want with their own phone, and Apple will no longer be able to force users, against their will, from install other app stores or browsers.
      - simondotau 4y ago
        > It is actually the user who will now be free to decide The user will be free to decide? Really? The user, most of whom are understandably ignorant to and/or disinterested in the nuances of privacy and tracking, won't remain captive to decisions implemented by programmers, hidden in code, concealed behind encryption and not exposed as a choice? Free to decide. I can't fathom that anyone actually might seriously believe this overly simplistic fairytale. This kind of freedom doesn't exist and the kind of rules the EU plans to implement don't change that. All they do is shuffle around influence from one set of global billion-dollar companies to another set of global billion-dollar companies. Or are you telling me that the EU will require mobile operating systems, app stores on those operating systems and all third party apps running on those operating systems to give users absolute freedom to control all aspects of how their privacy is handled? At least now we have Apple in a position to (and motivated to) enforce privacy standards on behalf of its ecosystem. It's not often that capitalistic forces are so squarely focused at the consumer interest; dismiss it at our collective peril.

adamius 4y ago

This attitude is exactly why Apple should be compelled to allow different browsers. You've shown me the door. Guess what? We took it. We've opened a new door right through the wall. Hello there! Lightning cables from Apple are equally bad. Guess what? Competitor cables are more resilient in real world use. But yes, bring on usb.

alickz 4y ago

>I don't want to install additional browsers, app stores, or other crap on my phone, I just want it to work well, out of the box with reasonably high security. I don't see these as mutually exclusive.