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One reason that there is pushback and needs to be pushback is that there are frequently really dumb vanity proposals because small-time politicians want to do s

One reason that there is pushback and needs to be pushback is that there are frequently really dumb vanity proposals because small-time politicians want to do something big. Locally there are a couple of plans to tear up and reroute highways in a decade long project where the highways literally just finished major tear-up-and-reroute project. There's another nonsensical proposal to tear up one of the busiest highways around and replace it with a nice boulevard because wouldn't that be lovely, except without any plan for what would happen to the rest of traffic. There are NIMBYs but there are also people worried about projects which are trying to help won't actually make anything better and often will have real negative consequences.

Barrin92 4y ago
>worried about projects which are trying to help won't actually make anything better and often will have real negative consequences the worry is misplaced because stupid projects are compensated by good ones. This obsession with efficiency, which seems to be an artifact of modern economic logic is one of the culprits of why nothing gets build. Effectiveness matters, not efficiency. This is just the same logic that VC investors use. nine out of ten startups are crap, some are scams, but it doesn't matter. Better to waste some resources than to build nothing at all. China understands this. People will laugh at empty ghost cities or wasteful vanity projects but they're compensated for by what works and tacit knowledge generated in the process. America's gilded age or new deal era or cold war military projects were no different. Better to go big and get something done than do nothing at all. And that's usually the two choices.
- bluGill 4y ago
  Efficiency matters because if you are efficient you can do more. There is only so much money you can get to build, build well and you get reelected and get more. Build bad and the project is cancled, or maybe it completes but it is too small (all you could afford) to be useful.
  - Karrot_Kream 4y ago
    Efficiency matters but it cannot be the paramount driver to growth. If it is, then there needs to be minimum metrics agreed upon for efficiency or you're just asking for a project with no end goal aka every construction project in an American city.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      Nobody said anything about that though. Your examples are all wrong though, projects with no end goal are not efficient almost by definition. That said, the nature of most projects is they will only last for a short time without maintenance. How much of what you are accusing of being projects with no end goal with projects with constant ongoing maintenance?
epistasis 4y ago
The problem with local input, and for that matter even the traffic engineer's input, is basic lack of thought about it. For example, almost nobody knows about Braess' paradox, where adding roads and cause more traffic. This is not induced demand, it's simply worse traffic for the same quantity of traffic through expanded routes. And there are tons of examples of getting rid of highways where the traffic just disappears, and everybody is happier. Or, locally, people are advocating against a small commuter rail project, in economic grounds, while the same people are advocating for spending 10x on highway projects that carry about the same number of people. Blame the politicians, but they are mo stupider than organized groups.

Barrin92 4y ago

>worried about projects which are trying to help won't actually make anything better and often will have real negative consequences the worry is misplaced because stupid projects are compensated by good ones. This obsession with efficiency, which seems to be an artifact of modern economic logic is one of the culprits of why nothing gets build. Effectiveness matters, not efficiency. This is just the same logic that VC investors use. nine out of ten startups are crap, some are scams, but it doesn't matter. Better to waste some resources than to build nothing at all. China understands this. People will laugh at empty ghost cities or wasteful vanity projects but they're compensated for by what works and tacit knowledge generated in the process. America's gilded age or new deal era or cold war military projects were no different. Better to go big and get something done than do nothing at all. And that's usually the two choices.

bluGill 4y ago
Efficiency matters because if you are efficient you can do more. There is only so much money you can get to build, build well and you get reelected and get more. Build bad and the project is cancled, or maybe it completes but it is too small (all you could afford) to be useful.
- Karrot_Kream 4y ago
  Efficiency matters but it cannot be the paramount driver to growth. If it is, then there needs to be minimum metrics agreed upon for efficiency or you're just asking for a project with no end goal aka every construction project in an American city.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    Nobody said anything about that though. Your examples are all wrong though, projects with no end goal are not efficient almost by definition. That said, the nature of most projects is they will only last for a short time without maintenance. How much of what you are accusing of being projects with no end goal with projects with constant ongoing maintenance?

epistasis 4y ago

The problem with local input, and for that matter even the traffic engineer's input, is basic lack of thought about it. For example, almost nobody knows about Braess' paradox, where adding roads and cause more traffic. This is not induced demand, it's simply worse traffic for the same quantity of traffic through expanded routes. And there are tons of examples of getting rid of highways where the traffic just disappears, and everybody is happier. Or, locally, people are advocating against a small commuter rail project, in economic grounds, while the same people are advocating for spending 10x on highway projects that carry about the same number of people. Blame the politicians, but they are mo stupider than organized groups.