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I heard Daniel on a podcast, so I will summarize my understanding of the theory for potential readers: technology is a tool which leverages resource extraction

I heard Daniel on a podcast, so I will summarize my understanding of the theory for potential readers: technology is a tool which leverages resource extraction and control, and the people who wield that tool define what values are normative within society; those who disagree do not control resources, and so the value system reflects (and rationalizes) those who control the tools.

tenpies 4y ago
To me it's not technology, it's how that technology is funded. Social media technology? 100% political. Well management technology? 100% a-political. If your technology is based on funding from a group that has no spine whatsoever (e.g. 99% of ad purchasers out there), then your technology is at the whim of the latest angry tweet. If your technology is based on funding from a group that is firmly rooted in reality, then nobody cares about politics because they're dealing with something much more important.
- andsoitis 4y ago
  > Well management technology? 100% a-political. "Wells" as in water wells? Or wellness management?
- RobertoG 4y ago
  Technology means power and power is never apolitical.
  - strgcmc 4y ago
    100% agreed. For an example of water management tech, "rooted in reality", but still clearly influenced/poisoned by political forces: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/06/susie-lee-congress-stocks-water-recycling/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/06/susie-lee-congr... .
  - Nasrudith 4y ago
    What are the politics involved with a large stick used as a lever or boiling water to purify it? Any delusional obstinace can make anything political, like the value of pi.
gumby 4y ago
> technology is a tool which leverages resource extraction and control What an absurdly reductionist viewpoint. Yes, the invention of the box camera did spur changes in, say, the normative definition of privacy in the public sphere. But in doing so it hardly “leverage[d] resource extraction and control”. And most people concerned about it, even if they didn’t own a camera themselves, certainly had access to other resources. And what about the pulley or the inclined plane? Come on. Adding accelerometers to phones had wonderful and (potentially) dangerous consequences, but ridiculous nonsense like his framing makes it harder to make assessment and judgement.
- TimTheTinker 4y ago
  > But in doing so it hardly “leverage[d] resource extraction and control” Actually, it did. Maybe not in the ways you'd think on inspection. Prior to cameras, the only way to get a reliable portrait was to hire a skilled painter -- so cameras transferred extraction and control of portraiture from skilled painters to photographers, which meant the barrier to entry into portraiture got lowered significantly, especially so as the price of cameras continued to drop. In other words, camera technology democratized the ability to produce representative imagery by significantly lowering the barrier to entry.
  - gumby 4y ago
    I agree with your analysis of how things rolled out! But I think it's pretty clear that the use of "resource extraction" in the case we're talking about is control by "Capital" of natural resources and the concomitant chokepoint/control over labor and the general public. Not the more general use of the term "resource" which you are pointing at. I'm trying hard not to use the M word because it usually leads to flaming and not reasonable discussion.
    - TimTheTinker 4y ago
      I'm not used to thinking of things in the terms in which "M"ism (as you put it) casts them. He had some interesting ideas, but his idea of an ideal society (and how to get there) doesn't correspond to reality. He was fundamentally wrong in how he views capitalist societies -- particularly his ignorance of the middle class and how access by literally anyone to equity and capital markets affects society. Power always concentrates to a few (the Pareto principle alone assures us of this, not to mention unequal distribution of 10,000 other differentiating characteristics between individuals). The question isn't whether that happens, but how and under what terms. When a middle class of educated business owners and professionals exists, and a government that ensures peaceful rule-of-law, a society looks nothing like anything "M" describes.

tenpies 4y ago

To me it's not technology, it's how that technology is funded. Social media technology? 100% political. Well management technology? 100% a-political. If your technology is based on funding from a group that has no spine whatsoever (e.g. 99% of ad purchasers out there), then your technology is at the whim of the latest angry tweet. If your technology is based on funding from a group that is firmly rooted in reality, then nobody cares about politics because they're dealing with something much more important.

andsoitis 4y ago
> Well management technology? 100% a-political. "Wells" as in water wells? Or wellness management?
RobertoG 4y ago
Technology means power and power is never apolitical.
- strgcmc 4y ago
  100% agreed. For an example of water management tech, "rooted in reality", but still clearly influenced/poisoned by political forces: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/06/susie-lee-congress-stocks-water-recycling/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/06/susie-lee-congr... .
- Nasrudith 4y ago
  What are the politics involved with a large stick used as a lever or boiling water to purify it? Any delusional obstinace can make anything political, like the value of pi.

gumby 4y ago

> technology is a tool which leverages resource extraction and control What an absurdly reductionist viewpoint. Yes, the invention of the box camera did spur changes in, say, the normative definition of privacy in the public sphere. But in doing so it hardly “leverage[d] resource extraction and control”. And most people concerned about it, even if they didn’t own a camera themselves, certainly had access to other resources. And what about the pulley or the inclined plane? Come on. Adding accelerometers to phones had wonderful and (potentially) dangerous consequences, but ridiculous nonsense like his framing makes it harder to make assessment and judgement.

TimTheTinker 4y ago
> But in doing so it hardly “leverage[d] resource extraction and control” Actually, it did. Maybe not in the ways you'd think on inspection. Prior to cameras, the only way to get a reliable portrait was to hire a skilled painter -- so cameras transferred extraction and control of portraiture from skilled painters to photographers, which meant the barrier to entry into portraiture got lowered significantly, especially so as the price of cameras continued to drop. In other words, camera technology democratized the ability to produce representative imagery by significantly lowering the barrier to entry.
- gumby 4y ago
  I agree with your analysis of how things rolled out! But I think it's pretty clear that the use of "resource extraction" in the case we're talking about is control by "Capital" of natural resources and the concomitant chokepoint/control over labor and the general public. Not the more general use of the term "resource" which you are pointing at. I'm trying hard not to use the M word because it usually leads to flaming and not reasonable discussion.
  - TimTheTinker 4y ago
    I'm not used to thinking of things in the terms in which "M"ism (as you put it) casts them. He had some interesting ideas, but his idea of an ideal society (and how to get there) doesn't correspond to reality. He was fundamentally wrong in how he views capitalist societies -- particularly his ignorance of the middle class and how access by literally anyone to equity and capital markets affects society. Power always concentrates to a few (the Pareto principle alone assures us of this, not to mention unequal distribution of 10,000 other differentiating characteristics between individuals). The question isn't whether that happens, but how and under what terms. When a middle class of educated business owners and professionals exists, and a government that ensures peaceful rule-of-law, a society looks nothing like anything "M" describes.