5 ms·

I wish more building designers would accommodate NOT using AC as a viable mode of operation. People did just fine before the advent of AC with ventilation, doo

I wish more building designers would accommodate NOT using AC as a viable mode of operation. People did just fine before the advent of AC with ventilation, door transoms, fans, and carefully considered layout. Now all of that has been subordinated to AC and we have windows that don't open, air doesn't flow the way it's supposed to, and buildings that heat up really fast on a sunny day when there's no AC system furiously keeping up with it.

brianwawok 4y ago
Kind of, yes? But people also just sat around or slept during the day for months out of the year to avoid the heat. I don't think going back 100 years in progress is really the right move, at least not for me. Peak AC need matches peak solar panel output. It's a problem we know how to solve.
- soperj 4y ago
  and it just dumps the heat into the atmosphere...
  - polyterative 4y ago
    energy is energy
    - newsclues 4y ago
      Not quite. Oil in the ground is potential energy. Oil being burned for heat to create power to run AC, is energy. By not using energy by careful design, we can avoid wasting energy.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    > and it just dumps the heat into the atmosphere... That's just moving the heat the sun dumped a few meters one way or the other, across a wall. It does add heat (the energy the AC needs to move the heat around) but when you have the sun dumping 1kW/m2 on the surroundings, it's going to be pretty anecdotal.
    - xxpor 4y ago
      Depends on the exact AC, but they usually (IIRC) have COF of about 3. So if the AC is moving 3000 W of heat, it will add about 1000 W of heat from the compressor/fan etc. But compared to the amount of energy needed to heat the atmosphere any appreciable amount, completely trivial.
      - Spivak 4y ago
        Right but where the source of that 1000W came from is what matters. Assume your building has solar panels and you disconnect yourself from the grid. You turn on your AC to move the 3000W of heat the sun is blasting you with and draw 1000W from your panels to do it. You don't count the 3000W because that energy was already there, we just moved it, but that's also true of the 1000W! So in a hypothetical solarpunk future of if your area is all solar during the day there's no guilt to using the AC.
        soperj 4y ago
        except for how the elements for the solar/battery were mined.
        bumby 4y ago
        >that energy was already there, we just moved it, but that's also true of the 1000W! Isn't this also the case for any type of energy (possible exception of nuclear)? Fossil fuel energy is "already there", just bound up in chemical bonds. The analogy is doubly true when comparing it to stored solar energy in batteries. The more important feature is the systemic effects of the energy conversion and transport.
- selfhoster11 4y ago
  Why not just rest, then? We could all use some rest in today's "productivity" obsessed world.
  - jackmott42 4y ago
    Prepare for even more shortages then.
    - shreyshnaccount 4y ago
      Most shortages have very less to do with productivity and alot to do with money
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Is it due to dense urban living? I grew up without AC in a house and it was fine but it seems more difficult to dissipate heat from say, my current apartment building.
- et-al 4y ago
  Due to building design in dense urban living. Most apartments only have a single exterior wall, so it's hard to get a cross breeze going through unless you open your door and ask your across-the-hall neighbor to do the same.
mywittyname 4y ago
Which is silly, considering the prevalence of fluid dynamics packages in design software anymore. We should be capable of designing buildings that have amazing airflow.
- dubswithus 4y ago
  Does that help with humidity? With a high dew point you're sweating even at low temperatures and it's not even helping to cool you off.
- tomp 4y ago
  Airflow can only do so much. If the whole atmosphere is hot day and night, there's literally no way to cool down without using extra energy.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    Right, in a lot of these places airflow would serve mostly to move hot air around.
  - jotm 4y ago
    Actually, a big sun shade some distance away would work without using extra energy. But it would be rather hard to build, and depending on location would require the approval of a lot of people and the government.
webkike 4y ago
When the power goes out in major cities during the hot months, members of groups vulnerable to heat die.
zajio1am 4y ago
I live in country where houses were not designed for AC and now 1 month per year they are figuratively unlivable.
- dubswithus 4y ago
  NL? I have heard this is coming a problem there.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    All of non-mediterranean europe. It's an issue in france and germany as well. AC is spreading (especially with reversible heat pumps which are easier to justify as not just a summer comfort thing) but it's slow going.
    - dubswithus 4y ago
      If you run outside during the summer then there is a heat stroke risk if your house is just as warm or warmer as outside.
deadbunny 4y ago
> People did just fine before the advent of AC Temperatures didn't hit so high and for so long back then. Sure we could design newer houses better but thats not gonna help the millions of people in current housing stock facing record breaking temps every year.
- masklinn 4y ago
  > Temperatures didn't hit so high and for so long back then. In some places they did, but then the entire thing was / is designed around it: qanats, wind-catchers, very narrow streets to provide shade and funnel winds. And basically dead afternoons, you'd live in the early morning and late afternoon / early night e.g. the spanish "siesta".
908B64B197 4y ago
> I wish more building designers would accommodate NOT using AC as a viable mode of operation. It's been attempted. The results are sometimes hilarious[0]. "One day last year, the outside temperature reached almost 100 degrees. The firm setup a kiddie pool in the courtyard and everybody got a popsicle." [0] https://kuow.org/stories/this-modern-seattle-building-doesn-t-have-ac-on-purpose https://kuow.org/stories/this-modern-seattle-building-doesn-...
- gamblor956 4y ago
  Update from 2020: they have a newer HQ with A/C: https://kuow.org/stories/an-architecture-firm-dedicated-to-green-building-felt-the-heat-and-got-ac-at-the-office-surprisingly-they-cut-their-energy-use https://kuow.org/stories/an-architecture-firm-dedicated-to-g... TLDR: heat-pump based AC, auto-tinting windows, lots of insulation (double-paned windows, etc.). The architect who designed the previous building admitted it's probably no longer possible to build modern buildings without A/C, due to density, computers, and climate change.
  - 908B64B197 4y ago
    This bit is probably as hilarious as the kiddies pool party. "No, and this was the big surprise for me. The new building actually uses less energy than their old one did. Even though the new one has air conditioning, a heat pump." [...] "Also, they had to change their behavior. For example, they got rid of their server room where all their big computers were. They moved those servers to the cloud, because those computers put out a lot of heat, and when you put out heat you've got to cool it." They reduced their energy consumption by outsourcing the energy-hungry bits of their business.
TremendousJudge 4y ago
I think you are presenting an idealized view of the past. First of all, before the advent of AC in many places office workers (and a much smaller portion of the population worked in offices) weren't expected to function as though it wasn't so hot you couldn't think. In the past, when the summer got too hot, it was just unbearable and that was it. It was so uncomfortable that AC was installed everywhere as soon as it was available. Yeah building design could be much better, but most old construction is also terribly ventilated. Entire rooms with no ventilation at all, windows that open to tiny air shafts with little air flow, absolutely terrible use of space, cramped kitchens... the list goes on. I have seen very few old apartments with what anybody would call "carefully considered layout". I wish more building designers would acommodate NOT using AC too, but I don't think there are good old days to return to.
ezoe 4y ago
Back in that day, Japan was not this hot. The situation in the recent couple of years are insane. It would be suicide to sleep without AC on now. I am living in a rather old rented house in Tokyo. The owner was an old couple. A former carpenter and his wife who hated AC so much so the entire house was designed for that purpose. There's everything you mentioned plus 欄間(https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%AC%84%E9%96%93 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%AC%84%E9%96%93). The air flow of this house is just like you hoped to be. And now, it become suicide to live without AC on. This house isn't efficient for the AC because of the design you wrote. But I have to use AC in order to survive anyway. The owner? They are living near my house, built a new modern house that is more air tight and insulated and constantly using... guess what? AC!
- zumu 4y ago
  > There's everything you mentioned plus 欄間 (ranma) I think the closest western equivalent would be a "transom window".
csours 4y ago
Not as many people lived in Texas/Florida etc before Air Conditioning. Air Conditioning is not a sin, it is a human adaptation to a semi-hostile environment. Perhaps there should be a requirement to have at least as many solar panels or share of a neighborhood solar project to cover your Air Conditioner base load. Perhaps there should be an extra thicc wall on the sunny side of the house in A/C country. Yes we can do better, but A/C increases human comfort and there's nothing wrong with that.
selfhoster11 4y ago
This has been bothering me for a while. Is AC, which is a huge waste of energy (from fossil fuels, because what else), the only option for cooling buildings? Clearly, not - since humans somehow dealt with it for thousands of years in particularly harsh climates. But the apparent unhealthy fascination with AC that some countries have almost doesn't acknowledge that there are other, more efficient ways to cool a venue.
- rtkwe 4y ago
  AC is way more space efficient than previous ways of cooling buildings and far more flexible. Another way people used to deal with the heat was just not working during the hottest portions of the day, there also used to be a lot more non-working time. AC lets you work continuously through the whole working day which is a big productivity boon. There's benefits beyond just energy usage to consider when we're evaluating cooling methods.
xyzzyz 4y ago
Lee Kuan Yew, the founding father of Singapore, considered AC to be key to its success: https://www.vox.com/2015/3/23/8278085/singapore-lee-kuan-yew-air-conditioning https://www.vox.com/2015/3/23/8278085/singapore-lee-kuan-yew... From interview with him: Question: Anything else besides multicultural tolerance that enabled Singapore's success? Answer: Air conditioning. Air conditioning was a most important invention for us, perhaps one of the signal inventions of history. It changed the nature of civilization by making development possible in the tropics. Without air conditioning you can work only in the cool early-morning hours or at dusk. The first thing I did upon becoming prime minister was to install air conditioners in buildings where the civil service worked. This was key to public efficiency.
fomine3 4y ago
It's now impossible in Japan. Outside is now sometimes at 38C and humidity is always high.
jotm 4y ago
I mean, yeah, but there's a point where natural ventilation is just not enough. That said, painting my workshop roof white was the single cheapest and most effective way to reduce temperatures during summer. "Did fine", which I also use a lot heh - people did fine living in caves. Riding horses, driving cars with no safety features, etc. Depends on the definition of fine.

brianwawok 4y ago

Kind of, yes? But people also just sat around or slept during the day for months out of the year to avoid the heat. I don't think going back 100 years in progress is really the right move, at least not for me. Peak AC need matches peak solar panel output. It's a problem we know how to solve.

soperj 4y ago
and it just dumps the heat into the atmosphere...
- polyterative 4y ago
  energy is energy
  - newsclues 4y ago
    Not quite. Oil in the ground is potential energy. Oil being burned for heat to create power to run AC, is energy. By not using energy by careful design, we can avoid wasting energy.
- masklinn 4y ago
  > and it just dumps the heat into the atmosphere... That's just moving the heat the sun dumped a few meters one way or the other, across a wall. It does add heat (the energy the AC needs to move the heat around) but when you have the sun dumping 1kW/m2 on the surroundings, it's going to be pretty anecdotal.
  - xxpor 4y ago
    Depends on the exact AC, but they usually (IIRC) have COF of about 3. So if the AC is moving 3000 W of heat, it will add about 1000 W of heat from the compressor/fan etc. But compared to the amount of energy needed to heat the atmosphere any appreciable amount, completely trivial.
    - Spivak 4y ago
      Right but where the source of that 1000W came from is what matters. Assume your building has solar panels and you disconnect yourself from the grid. You turn on your AC to move the 3000W of heat the sun is blasting you with and draw 1000W from your panels to do it. You don't count the 3000W because that energy was already there, we just moved it, but that's also true of the 1000W! So in a hypothetical solarpunk future of if your area is all solar during the day there's no guilt to using the AC.
      - soperj 4y ago
        except for how the elements for the solar/battery were mined.
      - bumby 4y ago
        >that energy was already there, we just moved it, but that's also true of the 1000W! Isn't this also the case for any type of energy (possible exception of nuclear)? Fossil fuel energy is "already there", just bound up in chemical bonds. The analogy is doubly true when comparing it to stored solar energy in batteries. The more important feature is the systemic effects of the energy conversion and transport.
selfhoster11 4y ago
Why not just rest, then? We could all use some rest in today's "productivity" obsessed world.
- jackmott42 4y ago
  Prepare for even more shortages then.
  - shreyshnaccount 4y ago
    Most shortages have very less to do with productivity and alot to do with money

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

Is it due to dense urban living? I grew up without AC in a house and it was fine but it seems more difficult to dissipate heat from say, my current apartment building.

et-al 4y ago
Due to building design in dense urban living. Most apartments only have a single exterior wall, so it's hard to get a cross breeze going through unless you open your door and ask your across-the-hall neighbor to do the same.

mywittyname 4y ago

Which is silly, considering the prevalence of fluid dynamics packages in design software anymore. We should be capable of designing buildings that have amazing airflow.

dubswithus 4y ago
Does that help with humidity? With a high dew point you're sweating even at low temperatures and it's not even helping to cool you off.
tomp 4y ago
Airflow can only do so much. If the whole atmosphere is hot day and night, there's literally no way to cool down without using extra energy.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  Right, in a lot of these places airflow would serve mostly to move hot air around.
- jotm 4y ago
  Actually, a big sun shade some distance away would work without using extra energy. But it would be rather hard to build, and depending on location would require the approval of a lot of people and the government.

webkike 4y ago

When the power goes out in major cities during the hot months, members of groups vulnerable to heat die.

zajio1am 4y ago

I live in country where houses were not designed for AC and now 1 month per year they are figuratively unlivable.

dubswithus 4y ago
NL? I have heard this is coming a problem there.
- masklinn 4y ago
  All of non-mediterranean europe. It's an issue in france and germany as well. AC is spreading (especially with reversible heat pumps which are easier to justify as not just a summer comfort thing) but it's slow going.
  - dubswithus 4y ago
    If you run outside during the summer then there is a heat stroke risk if your house is just as warm or warmer as outside.

deadbunny 4y ago

> People did just fine before the advent of AC Temperatures didn't hit so high and for so long back then. Sure we could design newer houses better but thats not gonna help the millions of people in current housing stock facing record breaking temps every year.

masklinn 4y ago
> Temperatures didn't hit so high and for so long back then. In some places they did, but then the entire thing was / is designed around it: qanats, wind-catchers, very narrow streets to provide shade and funnel winds. And basically dead afternoons, you'd live in the early morning and late afternoon / early night e.g. the spanish "siesta".

908B64B197 4y ago

> I wish more building designers would accommodate NOT using AC as a viable mode of operation. It's been attempted. The results are sometimes hilarious[0]. "One day last year, the outside temperature reached almost 100 degrees. The firm setup a kiddie pool in the courtyard and everybody got a popsicle." [0] https://kuow.org/stories/this-modern-seattle-building-doesn-t-have-ac-on-purpose https://kuow.org/stories/this-modern-seattle-building-doesn-...

gamblor956 4y ago
Update from 2020: they have a newer HQ with A/C: https://kuow.org/stories/an-architecture-firm-dedicated-to-green-building-felt-the-heat-and-got-ac-at-the-office-surprisingly-they-cut-their-energy-use https://kuow.org/stories/an-architecture-firm-dedicated-to-g... TLDR: heat-pump based AC, auto-tinting windows, lots of insulation (double-paned windows, etc.). The architect who designed the previous building admitted it's probably no longer possible to build modern buildings without A/C, due to density, computers, and climate change.
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  This bit is probably as hilarious as the kiddies pool party. "No, and this was the big surprise for me. The new building actually uses less energy than their old one did. Even though the new one has air conditioning, a heat pump." [...] "Also, they had to change their behavior. For example, they got rid of their server room where all their big computers were. They moved those servers to the cloud, because those computers put out a lot of heat, and when you put out heat you've got to cool it." They reduced their energy consumption by outsourcing the energy-hungry bits of their business.

TremendousJudge 4y ago

I think you are presenting an idealized view of the past. First of all, before the advent of AC in many places office workers (and a much smaller portion of the population worked in offices) weren't expected to function as though it wasn't so hot you couldn't think. In the past, when the summer got too hot, it was just unbearable and that was it. It was so uncomfortable that AC was installed everywhere as soon as it was available. Yeah building design could be much better, but most old construction is also terribly ventilated. Entire rooms with no ventilation at all, windows that open to tiny air shafts with little air flow, absolutely terrible use of space, cramped kitchens... the list goes on. I have seen very few old apartments with what anybody would call "carefully considered layout". I wish more building designers would acommodate NOT using AC too, but I don't think there are good old days to return to.

ezoe 4y ago

Back in that day, Japan was not this hot. The situation in the recent couple of years are insane. It would be suicide to sleep without AC on now. I am living in a rather old rented house in Tokyo. The owner was an old couple. A former carpenter and his wife who hated AC so much so the entire house was designed for that purpose. There's everything you mentioned plus 欄間(https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%AC%84%E9%96%93 https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%AC%84%E9%96%93). The air flow of this house is just like you hoped to be. And now, it become suicide to live without AC on. This house isn't efficient for the AC because of the design you wrote. But I have to use AC in order to survive anyway. The owner? They are living near my house, built a new modern house that is more air tight and insulated and constantly using... guess what? AC!

zumu 4y ago
> There's everything you mentioned plus 欄間 (ranma) I think the closest western equivalent would be a "transom window".

csours 4y ago

Not as many people lived in Texas/Florida etc before Air Conditioning. Air Conditioning is not a sin, it is a human adaptation to a semi-hostile environment. Perhaps there should be a requirement to have at least as many solar panels or share of a neighborhood solar project to cover your Air Conditioner base load. Perhaps there should be an extra thicc wall on the sunny side of the house in A/C country. Yes we can do better, but A/C increases human comfort and there's nothing wrong with that.

selfhoster11 4y ago

This has been bothering me for a while. Is AC, which is a huge waste of energy (from fossil fuels, because what else), the only option for cooling buildings? Clearly, not - since humans somehow dealt with it for thousands of years in particularly harsh climates. But the apparent unhealthy fascination with AC that some countries have almost doesn't acknowledge that there are other, more efficient ways to cool a venue.

rtkwe 4y ago
AC is way more space efficient than previous ways of cooling buildings and far more flexible. Another way people used to deal with the heat was just not working during the hottest portions of the day, there also used to be a lot more non-working time. AC lets you work continuously through the whole working day which is a big productivity boon. There's benefits beyond just energy usage to consider when we're evaluating cooling methods.

xyzzyz 4y ago

Lee Kuan Yew, the founding father of Singapore, considered AC to be key to its success: https://www.vox.com/2015/3/23/8278085/singapore-lee-kuan-yew-air-conditioning https://www.vox.com/2015/3/23/8278085/singapore-lee-kuan-yew... From interview with him: Question: Anything else besides multicultural tolerance that enabled Singapore's success? Answer: Air conditioning. Air conditioning was a most important invention for us, perhaps one of the signal inventions of history. It changed the nature of civilization by making development possible in the tropics. Without air conditioning you can work only in the cool early-morning hours or at dusk. The first thing I did upon becoming prime minister was to install air conditioners in buildings where the civil service worked. This was key to public efficiency.

fomine3 4y ago

It's now impossible in Japan. Outside is now sometimes at 38C and humidity is always high.

jotm 4y ago

I mean, yeah, but there's a point where natural ventilation is just not enough. That said, painting my workshop roof white was the single cheapest and most effective way to reduce temperatures during summer. "Did fine", which I also use a lot heh - people did fine living in caves. Riding horses, driving cars with no safety features, etc. Depends on the definition of fine.