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People "only" complain due to their effectiveness? OPEC is also a union, have I no grounds to complain about them? What about when meat packing companies cartel

People "only" complain due to their effectiveness? OPEC is also a union, have I no grounds to complain about them? What about when meat packing companies cartelize together to raise their incomes? Competition is a good thing whether in labor or oil or chicken markets.

adam-a 4y ago
What are you talking about? OPEC is not a labour union, which is clearly what’s being discussed here. You may as well say a horse is a duck because they both shit.
- missedthecue 4y ago
  OPEC works the same way as a union. They are both groups of competitors that band together to form a cartel, using similar tactics to increase the price of the product the sell. In one case, oil, in the other, labor.
  - camdat 4y ago
    Unions are made up of workers and their combined labor. OPEC is not. This is definitional.
    - missedthecue 4y ago
      OPEC is made up of oil producing countries and their combined output. They are extremely similar except that one deals in labor, and the other in petrochemicals.
      - kyleplum 4y ago
        One is big enough to influence the global market price for it's product, the other is small and localized and has effectively no influence on the going market rate for it's product.
        missedthecue 4y ago
        You don't think the UAW has any impact on the price of autoworker labor?
        kyleplum 4y ago
        On a global level? No. On a local level? Maybe? But consider that the US workers of the most valuable car company in the world (by a factor of about 3)are not part of the UAW, so it's debatable at best.
        chmod775 4y ago
        Tesla is a tiny, tiny company. Tesla's market share is about 2.5%, or 14% when only looking at electric vehicles. It's not even in the top 10 of car manufacturers by revenue. In fact it's only like 1/5th the size of the tenth place (Hyundai), or about 1/14th the size of the first place on that list (Volkswagen). It's not going move any car markets on its own, regardless of what goes on at Tesla. So yeah, valuation is completely detached from (current) reality in this case, and Tesla is not a great example. We could look at the biggest manufacturer instead, but I'm sure most people have heard of VW's union by now.
      - heavenlyblue 4y ago
        Yeah, let’s mix up the definition of a legal person and an actual person.
dghlsakjg 4y ago
OPEC is a cartel. In most econ 101 classes it is used as the most prevalent example of a cartel. I have never seen anyone argue that it is a labor union.
- gruez 4y ago
  Is a labor union not a cartel for labor?
  - kyleplum 4y ago
    No because the company has other options for labor - it can fire it's entire workforce and rehire, or relocate. The same can't be said for cartels which have complete control over their respective markets.
    - missedthecue 4y ago
      Not in all industries or countries. This only applies to extremely weak unions. It is very difficult to hire non-uaw members for instance. There was a huge multi-month strike brining massive work stoppages a few years ago over this issue. Same with Kelloggs last year.
    - gruez 4y ago
      >No because the company has other options for labor [...] The same can't be said for cartels which have complete control over their respective markets. that's like saying OPEC isn't a cartel because you can still get oil from russia or canada. >it can fire it's entire workforce and rehire isn't that union-busting and/or illegal?
      - kyleplum 4y ago
        I'm not convinced that a single labor union has the power to influence the labor market outside of the specific company the union represents. This is not the case for OPEC who has sufficient power to manipulate the market. > isn't that union-busting and/or illegal? It's supposed to be, but it's often the case that corporations are not penalized to a sufficient amount (or at all) to deter this. We've seen many cases where it's cheaper for the corporation to pay these fines and continue doing what they are doing - in that sense the current laws are ineffective.
kelseyfrog 4y ago
What does the word union mean to you?
- missedthecue 4y ago
  Restricting competition to raise the cost of the product sold. That's why unions hate people who cross the picket line. If you willingly compete, you undermine the whole strategy.
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    That's so interesting. Most people tend to call that a monopoly and use the word union for something else. What made you choose to use union for this behavior instead?
    - missedthecue 4y ago
      Well unions really only work well when they have a monopoly. If a plant want's to go on strike over something, but that means only 10% of the workforce is walking off, that's not as effective as if the union was in a monopoly position. In fact this is why the Clayton Act specifically exempts unions from anti-trust law, and it's why "Right to work" laws are so controversial - they reduce the monopoly status of the union.
      - kelseyfrog 4y ago
        I get all that. I also understand that unions function as a labor monopoly. What I don't get is not simply referring to unions as unions and monopolies as monopolies as is the common practice. Correct me, if I'm understanding but your point seems to be this Unions are a monopoly so it makes sense to call OPEC a union. Let me refer us both back to intro to programming and frame this in OOP terms. Just because a Cat has an IS-A relationship to Animal, does not make all Animals Cats.
        missedthecue 4y ago

adam-a 4y ago

What are you talking about? OPEC is not a labour union, which is clearly what’s being discussed here. You may as well say a horse is a duck because they both shit.

missedthecue 4y ago
OPEC works the same way as a union. They are both groups of competitors that band together to form a cartel, using similar tactics to increase the price of the product the sell. In one case, oil, in the other, labor.
- camdat 4y ago
  Unions are made up of workers and their combined labor. OPEC is not. This is definitional.
  - missedthecue 4y ago
    OPEC is made up of oil producing countries and their combined output. They are extremely similar except that one deals in labor, and the other in petrochemicals.
    - kyleplum 4y ago
      One is big enough to influence the global market price for it's product, the other is small and localized and has effectively no influence on the going market rate for it's product.
      - missedthecue 4y ago
        You don't think the UAW has any impact on the price of autoworker labor?
        kyleplum 4y ago
        On a global level? No. On a local level? Maybe? But consider that the US workers of the most valuable car company in the world (by a factor of about 3)are not part of the UAW, so it's debatable at best.
        chmod775 4y ago
        Tesla is a tiny, tiny company. Tesla's market share is about 2.5%, or 14% when only looking at electric vehicles. It's not even in the top 10 of car manufacturers by revenue. In fact it's only like 1/5th the size of the tenth place (Hyundai), or about 1/14th the size of the first place on that list (Volkswagen). It's not going move any car markets on its own, regardless of what goes on at Tesla. So yeah, valuation is completely detached from (current) reality in this case, and Tesla is not a great example. We could look at the biggest manufacturer instead, but I'm sure most people have heard of VW's union by now.
    - heavenlyblue 4y ago
      Yeah, let’s mix up the definition of a legal person and an actual person.

dghlsakjg 4y ago

OPEC is a cartel. In most econ 101 classes it is used as the most prevalent example of a cartel. I have never seen anyone argue that it is a labor union.

gruez 4y ago
Is a labor union not a cartel for labor?
- kyleplum 4y ago
  No because the company has other options for labor - it can fire it's entire workforce and rehire, or relocate. The same can't be said for cartels which have complete control over their respective markets.
  - missedthecue 4y ago
    Not in all industries or countries. This only applies to extremely weak unions. It is very difficult to hire non-uaw members for instance. There was a huge multi-month strike brining massive work stoppages a few years ago over this issue. Same with Kelloggs last year.
  - gruez 4y ago
    >No because the company has other options for labor [...] The same can't be said for cartels which have complete control over their respective markets. that's like saying OPEC isn't a cartel because you can still get oil from russia or canada. >it can fire it's entire workforce and rehire isn't that union-busting and/or illegal?
    - kyleplum 4y ago
      I'm not convinced that a single labor union has the power to influence the labor market outside of the specific company the union represents. This is not the case for OPEC who has sufficient power to manipulate the market. > isn't that union-busting and/or illegal? It's supposed to be, but it's often the case that corporations are not penalized to a sufficient amount (or at all) to deter this. We've seen many cases where it's cheaper for the corporation to pay these fines and continue doing what they are doing - in that sense the current laws are ineffective.

kelseyfrog 4y ago

What does the word union mean to you?

missedthecue 4y ago
Restricting competition to raise the cost of the product sold. That's why unions hate people who cross the picket line. If you willingly compete, you undermine the whole strategy.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  That's so interesting. Most people tend to call that a monopoly and use the word union for something else. What made you choose to use union for this behavior instead?
  - missedthecue 4y ago
    Well unions really only work well when they have a monopoly. If a plant want's to go on strike over something, but that means only 10% of the workforce is walking off, that's not as effective as if the union was in a monopoly position. In fact this is why the Clayton Act specifically exempts unions from anti-trust law, and it's why "Right to work" laws are so controversial - they reduce the monopoly status of the union.
    - kelseyfrog 4y ago
      I get all that. I also understand that unions function as a labor monopoly. What I don't get is not simply referring to unions as unions and monopolies as monopolies as is the common practice. Correct me, if I'm understanding but your point seems to be this Unions are a monopoly so it makes sense to call OPEC a union. Let me refer us both back to intro to programming and frame this in OOP terms. Just because a Cat has an IS-A relationship to Animal, does not make all Animals Cats.
      - missedthecue 4y ago