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> I think there's in general a "personality type" that does really well with remote in a certain kind of job and thrives with fairly asynchronous disconnected t

> I think there's in general a "personality type" that does really well with remote in a certain kind of job and thrives with fairly asynchronous disconnected tasks, and on HN I think there's a bias towards seeing our whole industry that way. Sites like HN are popular with people who prefer to socialize online and have chosen online communities to be a part of. Remote work is a natural extension of how they’ve built their online lives, which leads a lot of people to assume remote work is just natural for everyone. But it’s not. Like you said, there are a lot of personality types that do not do well at all when working remote. Discussing those people has become difficult in online spaces where people like remote work and resist any suggestion that it’s not good for everyone. This has done more harm than good to the cause, IMO, because a lot of companies and teams went head-first into remote assuming it’d be an easy win. Yet on a company-wide scale, it’s not. It requires work, and training, and mentoring, and more resources just to get back to baseline in many cases. Companies that have deluded themselves into thinking it would be easy are then caught off guard and disappointed, leading to sudden reversals of remote work policies or slow depreciation of remote teams. If we want remote to continue to grow, we need to shift the narrative away from “Its just better, period” to a more nuanced acknowledgement that it’s not for everyone and that it requires training and effort to unlock and maintain the benefits.

cmrdporcupine 4y ago
The funny thing is that I got my "start" in programming doing things remote. Open source development, and in the 90s, IRC, MUDs/MOOs, etc. I have all sorts of collaborators and friends I've actually never met in person. And we were pretty productive. But that's not how $work went, when it went remote. All the open sores just festered and got worse. I know for a fact multiple projects delayed or faltered because of the remote move and the impact it had on productivity. And I'm sure it wasn't restricted to Google, but industry wide.
- civilized 4y ago
  I mostly agree with you, but we should remember that the shift to remote happened abruptly due to an unprecedented, immensely disruptive pandemic. This was not a controlled experiment where we can automatically attribute any issues that emerged after the shift to inherent flaws in remote work. That said, I think your experiences with the limitations of remote are valid and shouldn't be dismissed, although I personally am extremely committed to remote.
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago
    I'm committed to remote, too, because the alternative (local pseudo-feudal crappy employers who generally underpay) is worse. But now on my own terms and with an employer I choose rather than the half-assed way that it was attempted at Google. And without my kids at home. Probably, actually, I'll end up renting a desk out of home somewhere nearby.
    - civilized 4y ago
      Sounds like we both survived the pandemic with young kids at home. I for one won't be getting the t-shirt.
heretogetout 4y ago
I think the same arguments could be made if you swapped in-person for remote (nearly) throughout. There are those of us who prefer remote work and have been told that we must spend dozens to hundreds of hours a year just commuting in order to be more productive. "Finally", more companies are acknowledging our POV and optimal work style after years/decades of talking about it -- I think that's why there is so much enthusiasm around remote work these days. The pendulum may have swung too far, on that I'll agree.
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
I agree with some qualifiers. I think some of us went all out with 'its just better' due to incessant onslaught of corporate propaganda telling me spending 2 hours in traffic is akin to meditation and 'me' time. Those ridiculous statements caused a lot of people to go into messaging overdrive that, arguably, lacked nuance. Personally, I can attest that in person has some advantages over remote ( training comes to mind ), but I agree with the gist of the article that a lot depends on the audience ( some people don't need constant hand-holding ). And that is just two facets without touching the fact that not all jobs can be remote ( although a lot could be ) and some industries are ran by, well, old people who only know of one way to do things. Is it harder? It can be. My team was fine, but some of us were already fighting for off-site schedule pre-pandemic. After pandemic started, I made an obvious prediction that we will see some differentiation in companies ( full remote, hybrid, in person ). Workforce already voted for what they want ( remote jobs see 3-4 times the applicants ), but it is a larger cultural shift and companies would love to keep remote as a carrot for 'top performers'.

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

The funny thing is that I got my "start" in programming doing things remote. Open source development, and in the 90s, IRC, MUDs/MOOs, etc. I have all sorts of collaborators and friends I've actually never met in person. And we were pretty productive. But that's not how $work went, when it went remote. All the open sores just festered and got worse. I know for a fact multiple projects delayed or faltered because of the remote move and the impact it had on productivity. And I'm sure it wasn't restricted to Google, but industry wide.

civilized 4y ago
I mostly agree with you, but we should remember that the shift to remote happened abruptly due to an unprecedented, immensely disruptive pandemic. This was not a controlled experiment where we can automatically attribute any issues that emerged after the shift to inherent flaws in remote work. That said, I think your experiences with the limitations of remote are valid and shouldn't be dismissed, although I personally am extremely committed to remote.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  I'm committed to remote, too, because the alternative (local pseudo-feudal crappy employers who generally underpay) is worse. But now on my own terms and with an employer I choose rather than the half-assed way that it was attempted at Google. And without my kids at home. Probably, actually, I'll end up renting a desk out of home somewhere nearby.
  - civilized 4y ago
    Sounds like we both survived the pandemic with young kids at home. I for one won't be getting the t-shirt.

heretogetout 4y ago

I think the same arguments could be made if you swapped in-person for remote (nearly) throughout. There are those of us who prefer remote work and have been told that we must spend dozens to hundreds of hours a year just commuting in order to be more productive. "Finally", more companies are acknowledging our POV and optimal work style after years/decades of talking about it -- I think that's why there is so much enthusiasm around remote work these days. The pendulum may have swung too far, on that I'll agree.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

I agree with some qualifiers. I think some of us went all out with 'its just better' due to incessant onslaught of corporate propaganda telling me spending 2 hours in traffic is akin to meditation and 'me' time. Those ridiculous statements caused a lot of people to go into messaging overdrive that, arguably, lacked nuance. Personally, I can attest that in person has some advantages over remote ( training comes to mind ), but I agree with the gist of the article that a lot depends on the audience ( some people don't need constant hand-holding ). And that is just two facets without touching the fact that not all jobs can be remote ( although a lot could be ) and some industries are ran by, well, old people who only know of one way to do things. Is it harder? It can be. My team was fine, but some of us were already fighting for off-site schedule pre-pandemic. After pandemic started, I made an obvious prediction that we will see some differentiation in companies ( full remote, hybrid, in person ). Workforce already voted for what they want ( remote jobs see 3-4 times the applicants ), but it is a larger cultural shift and companies would love to keep remote as a carrot for 'top performers'.