6 ms·

IMO, an expensive keyboard/mouse/monitor isn't necessary for a junior to succeed. Plenty of coders learned on much worse.

_dain_ 4y ago
That's penny wise, pound foolish thinking. A good keyboard and mouse and monitor for your developers (who directly earn you revenue) is not going to break the bank. But the lack of them will reduce productivity and morale, possibly even causing (on the margin) some talented people to leave. RSI and posture problems are no joke! In other industries you need immense capital investment in equipment for workers to be productive; no serious software company should care about the comparative pittance that office hardware costs.
- calvinmorrison 4y ago
  the amount of times i see critical business users getting slowed down because their laptop is a piece of crap astounds me. The value of the laptop is negligible amortized over it's lifespan so give people good stuff to work with.
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  It's a raindrop in a hurricane though, the best keyboard, mouse, and monitor in the world aren't going to make someone productive in an unproductive environment.
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    Maybe not, but a bad set of tools can cause real problems. Strain injury, for one thing.
    - geraldwhen 4y ago
      Exactly this. I got RSI from using bad keyboards and mice, and I won’t any more.
  - spideymans 4y ago
    But they could make someone unproductive in an otherwise productive environment. Engineers are expensive, and every minute they spend fighting with equipment rather than being productive is costly.
- simias 4y ago
  I wouldn't expect my employer to provide anything but a decent quality membrane keyboard and a middle of the range logitech mouse by default. Then people who prefer higher end hardware can ask for an upgrade. I'm typing on a 300 euro keyboard right now but I would consider it a gross waste of money if a company decided to give them to every single employee regardless of need or preference. For instance for most people better chairs and desks would be a vastly better investment, ergonomy-wise.
  - RHSeeger 4y ago
    > membrane keyboard I can't type on these things to save my life. I need full keys with at least some click in order to type well. When I'm forced to use the keyboard and trackpad on my mac, I am an order of magnitude slower than I am on a cheap external keyboard and mouse.
  - verve_rat 4y ago
    That's why people should get a budget to pick their own gear.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  Your comment reminds me of all the people screeching about their good school district, as if it is somehow capable of covering for them if they choose to be a crap parent. In both cases the stuff people are fussing over is basically a rounding error compared to the big factors. Beyond some basic utility, e.g. being able to compile the code in under 5min, the hardware one uses is of negligible impact to their success. A developer will succeed or fail based on their training, mentorship, the nature of the tasks they are given, and all the other more social and interpersonal facets of the business they fine themselves in. A glitchy mouse won't make them or break them.
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    >A glitchy mouse won't make them or break them. It can break my god damn wrist joints if I have to use it all day. Speaking from experience.
  - The-Bus 4y ago
    A glitchy mouse sends the message that a company is not willing to spend $35 on a mid-tier Logitech mouse for the benefit of a resource they are likely spending six figures on (not just in salary but other costs). If they are making this easily fixable mistake, imagine what else they're doing poorly.
    - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
      A company isn't going to go all out on everything all the time. That an unending task. At any given time you are going to be putting up with something that's less than ideal in the workplace. Maybe the mouses will suck. Maybe the coffee machine will be broken. Maybe the test server will be a slug. There will be something to complain about all the time if that's what you want to do. All of these can be construed as some "signal" but you're basically just reading noise.
  - criddell 4y ago
    Don Norman has has found that attractive things work better[1]. While it’s not exactly the same, I think giving your employee some freedom to choose the gear they use is probably money well spent. [1]: https://jnd.org/emotion_design_attractive_things_work_better/ https://jnd.org/emotion_design_attractive_things_work_better...
- nemetroid 4y ago
  The fact that good equipment makes economical sense doesn't refute the argument that good equipment is not a requirement for a junior to succeed.
selfhoster11 4y ago
100% disagree. I will NOT be productive at a desk if you put me in front of a single monitor, period. That has been the case since I first tried a dual screen in a professional setting and realised the benefits. A related note is that I loathe garbage keyboards. If you make me type on some garbage rubber-dome with unbalanced and scratchy keys, I will not be happy.
- doubled112 4y ago
  I have been using a single 28" 4K screen for a while and I've never felt like I needed more pixels since. At 100% scaling there's a ton of space. No need to go through the minimize, maximize, switch, switch back usage pattern. I've never understood why people are willing to put up with garbage gear either. I'm not talking about the computer itself, but the things you touch. You sit at this machine and use it for 8h+ a day. Why shouldn't you be in contact with things that feel good to you? Nice screen (or two if that is your preference), decent keyboard, mouse that feels good. I think it is important. Mechanics don't use dollar store ratchets, do they?
  - josephd79 4y ago
    I 100% agree. IF you spend 8h+ a day at your workstation or computer use the best equipment you can afford to get.
  - selfhoster11 4y ago
    I mean, a 28" is basically two medium-sized screens' worth of space side by side. But yes, quality on things you use every day matters a lot.
- macspoofing 4y ago
  >I will NOT be productive at a desk if you put me in front of a single monitor, period. Give me a break. Software development has been going on for decades now on all kinds of hardware (how did all those Software developers survive all these years??). You can be productive and get your work done on a single monitor, you just prefer dual monitors.
bilekas 4y ago
I brought in my favorite keyboard before to the office .. They didn't appreciate the noise but MY productivity was top that day.
- organsnyder 4y ago
  When I was working in an office I made sure to buy a mechanical keyboard with soft-ish switches (Cherry Brown, IIRC). People still commented on my fancy clicky keyboard, but no one complained (to my knowledge) about the noise.
- mellavora 4y ago
  Let me guess, kinesis?
  - bilekas 4y ago
    hhkb pro2! It's not too bad, but you really appreciate the value of lubricating your switches when you're conscious about the sound!
indymike 4y ago
> IMO, an expensive keyboard/mouse/monitor isn't necessary for a junior to succeed. Plenty of coders learned on much worse. This is true, but the learning process is much more enjoyable when you are correctly equipped.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
jimbob45 4y ago
If it's really that much of a problem, most companies will let you bring your own. Everyone at my last place did that with no issue.
- thesuitonym 4y ago
  It's been the norm for decades that companies provide workers with the tools they need to do their job. And good companies provide good tools. If you're bringing in your own means of production, what is the company for?
  - jimbob45 4y ago
    My mouse and keyboard together are less than $75. A Visual Studio Pro license is ~$1600. I think I'm still coming out ahead.
  - jstanley 4y ago
    If your laptop is the means of production, just quit your job and work for yourself, you'll make loads more money. Either that's true (sometimes it is!), and you should do it, or it's false, and the company is providing something after all.
  - treis 4y ago
    >It's been the norm for decades that companies provide workers with the tools they need to do their job I don't think that's true. Trades usually have their own equipment. At least for the small stuff on the order of keyboards and mice.
- GordonS 4y ago
  Unless it's Evil Corp, where the USB ports are epoxy'd, and/or software protects against anything "non-standard" being plugged in :-/
dj_mc_merlin 4y ago
I actually find it hard to switch from my "bad" hardware, I'm so used to one single small screen and average keyboard that it's how I do all my coding, despite having enough money to buy an expensive set up. I find it distracts me from my actual job, which is thinking.
- judge2020 4y ago
  At least a second monitor tends to be super useful, especially if you ever need to refer to documentation or another file while coding. To add, while this study isn't measuring actual productivity, people say they expect/feel like their productivity increased 40% with a second monitor: https://www.jonpeddie.com/press-releases/jon-peddie-research-multiple-displays-can-increase-productivity-by-42/ https://www.jonpeddie.com/press-releases/jon-peddie-research...
- dmatech 4y ago
  Having a lot of monitors might encourage multitasking beyond what one's attention span can handle. If you have 4 monitors, you'll be tempted to throw YouTube on one and news sites on the others. A single monitor forces you to replace your code editor with YouTube, and people are probably more hesitant to do this.
- l30n4da5 4y ago
  same. i've got 3 old monitors that just keep working. could I get a new widescreen to replace all three? Yeah. will I? Probably not.
- UglyToad 4y ago
  Strong same, I've been working on a 14" laptop for the past 2 years with no external monitor or keyboard. A second monitor makes me twice as productive at procrastinating. Given I can only reasonably have a single application open (which is an IDE with full documentation/intellisense inside) it means I'm forced to focus, apart from right now obviously.
lozenge 4y ago
Feeling valued is necessary for a junior. They deserve the same three monitors everybody else gets.
- eurasiantiger 4y ago
  I think devs would be better off having the equipment they need instead of everyone getting the same package. And yes, that includes juniors starting with a simple setup, and expand as they start to know what tools would make them more effective at the work they end up doing.
- macspoofing 4y ago
  >They deserve the same three monitors everybody else gets. I wouldn't make a strong statement like that. As a junior, you're just excited to be there, and gain experience. If the company policy is that you don't get the top-of-the-line hardware until you reach a certain professional milestone and this policy is applied equally then it's not the end of the world.
  - HelloNurse 4y ago
    It's the not-even-beginning of the world. Why work for someone so cheap? Why fight for a monitor, where at a competitor you could fight fort a raise?
  - MAGZine 4y ago
    You proffer that people should be fine being second-rate citizens so long as there is a policy outlining their second-ratedness? This is not the star-studded retention policy you think it is.
  - MattGaiser 4y ago
    > As a junior, you're just excited to be there, and gain experience. For the first few months perhaps. Then a friend sends a pic of his setup and tells you that he will split a referral bonus with you if you apply. It took me 4 months to find my first dev job, once I hit the 6 month mark, jobs came to me in abundance.
- 4y ago
nsxwolf 4y ago
No one should be given garbage equipment to do this job. Doesn't anyone remember ergonomics?

_dain_ 4y ago

That's penny wise, pound foolish thinking. A good keyboard and mouse and monitor for your developers (who directly earn you revenue) is not going to break the bank. But the lack of them will reduce productivity and morale, possibly even causing (on the margin) some talented people to leave. RSI and posture problems are no joke! In other industries you need immense capital investment in equipment for workers to be productive; no serious software company should care about the comparative pittance that office hardware costs.

calvinmorrison 4y ago
the amount of times i see critical business users getting slowed down because their laptop is a piece of crap astounds me. The value of the laptop is negligible amortized over it's lifespan so give people good stuff to work with.
micromacrofoot 4y ago
It's a raindrop in a hurricane though, the best keyboard, mouse, and monitor in the world aren't going to make someone productive in an unproductive environment.
- _dain_ 4y ago
  Maybe not, but a bad set of tools can cause real problems. Strain injury, for one thing.
  - geraldwhen 4y ago
    Exactly this. I got RSI from using bad keyboards and mice, and I won’t any more.
- spideymans 4y ago
  But they could make someone unproductive in an otherwise productive environment. Engineers are expensive, and every minute they spend fighting with equipment rather than being productive is costly.
simias 4y ago
I wouldn't expect my employer to provide anything but a decent quality membrane keyboard and a middle of the range logitech mouse by default. Then people who prefer higher end hardware can ask for an upgrade. I'm typing on a 300 euro keyboard right now but I would consider it a gross waste of money if a company decided to give them to every single employee regardless of need or preference. For instance for most people better chairs and desks would be a vastly better investment, ergonomy-wise.
- RHSeeger 4y ago
  > membrane keyboard I can't type on these things to save my life. I need full keys with at least some click in order to type well. When I'm forced to use the keyboard and trackpad on my mac, I am an order of magnitude slower than I am on a cheap external keyboard and mouse.
- verve_rat 4y ago
  That's why people should get a budget to pick their own gear.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
Your comment reminds me of all the people screeching about their good school district, as if it is somehow capable of covering for them if they choose to be a crap parent. In both cases the stuff people are fussing over is basically a rounding error compared to the big factors. Beyond some basic utility, e.g. being able to compile the code in under 5min, the hardware one uses is of negligible impact to their success. A developer will succeed or fail based on their training, mentorship, the nature of the tasks they are given, and all the other more social and interpersonal facets of the business they fine themselves in. A glitchy mouse won't make them or break them.
- _dain_ 4y ago
  >A glitchy mouse won't make them or break them. It can break my god damn wrist joints if I have to use it all day. Speaking from experience.
- The-Bus 4y ago
  A glitchy mouse sends the message that a company is not willing to spend $35 on a mid-tier Logitech mouse for the benefit of a resource they are likely spending six figures on (not just in salary but other costs). If they are making this easily fixable mistake, imagine what else they're doing poorly.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    A company isn't going to go all out on everything all the time. That an unending task. At any given time you are going to be putting up with something that's less than ideal in the workplace. Maybe the mouses will suck. Maybe the coffee machine will be broken. Maybe the test server will be a slug. There will be something to complain about all the time if that's what you want to do. All of these can be construed as some "signal" but you're basically just reading noise.
- criddell 4y ago
  Don Norman has has found that attractive things work better[1]. While it’s not exactly the same, I think giving your employee some freedom to choose the gear they use is probably money well spent. [1]: https://jnd.org/emotion_design_attractive_things_work_better/ https://jnd.org/emotion_design_attractive_things_work_better...
nemetroid 4y ago
The fact that good equipment makes economical sense doesn't refute the argument that good equipment is not a requirement for a junior to succeed.

selfhoster11 4y ago

100% disagree. I will NOT be productive at a desk if you put me in front of a single monitor, period. That has been the case since I first tried a dual screen in a professional setting and realised the benefits. A related note is that I loathe garbage keyboards. If you make me type on some garbage rubber-dome with unbalanced and scratchy keys, I will not be happy.

doubled112 4y ago
I have been using a single 28" 4K screen for a while and I've never felt like I needed more pixels since. At 100% scaling there's a ton of space. No need to go through the minimize, maximize, switch, switch back usage pattern. I've never understood why people are willing to put up with garbage gear either. I'm not talking about the computer itself, but the things you touch. You sit at this machine and use it for 8h+ a day. Why shouldn't you be in contact with things that feel good to you? Nice screen (or two if that is your preference), decent keyboard, mouse that feels good. I think it is important. Mechanics don't use dollar store ratchets, do they?
- josephd79 4y ago
  I 100% agree. IF you spend 8h+ a day at your workstation or computer use the best equipment you can afford to get.
- selfhoster11 4y ago
  I mean, a 28" is basically two medium-sized screens' worth of space side by side. But yes, quality on things you use every day matters a lot.
macspoofing 4y ago
>I will NOT be productive at a desk if you put me in front of a single monitor, period. Give me a break. Software development has been going on for decades now on all kinds of hardware (how did all those Software developers survive all these years??). You can be productive and get your work done on a single monitor, you just prefer dual monitors.

bilekas 4y ago

I brought in my favorite keyboard before to the office .. They didn't appreciate the noise but MY productivity was top that day.

organsnyder 4y ago
When I was working in an office I made sure to buy a mechanical keyboard with soft-ish switches (Cherry Brown, IIRC). People still commented on my fancy clicky keyboard, but no one complained (to my knowledge) about the noise.
mellavora 4y ago
Let me guess, kinesis?
- bilekas 4y ago
  hhkb pro2! It's not too bad, but you really appreciate the value of lubricating your switches when you're conscious about the sound!

indymike 4y ago

> IMO, an expensive keyboard/mouse/monitor isn't necessary for a junior to succeed. Plenty of coders learned on much worse. This is true, but the learning process is much more enjoyable when you are correctly equipped.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

jimbob45 4y ago

If it's really that much of a problem, most companies will let you bring your own. Everyone at my last place did that with no issue.

thesuitonym 4y ago
It's been the norm for decades that companies provide workers with the tools they need to do their job. And good companies provide good tools. If you're bringing in your own means of production, what is the company for?
- jimbob45 4y ago
  My mouse and keyboard together are less than $75. A Visual Studio Pro license is ~$1600. I think I'm still coming out ahead.
- jstanley 4y ago
  If your laptop is the means of production, just quit your job and work for yourself, you'll make loads more money. Either that's true (sometimes it is!), and you should do it, or it's false, and the company is providing something after all.
- treis 4y ago
  >It's been the norm for decades that companies provide workers with the tools they need to do their job I don't think that's true. Trades usually have their own equipment. At least for the small stuff on the order of keyboards and mice.
GordonS 4y ago
Unless it's Evil Corp, where the USB ports are epoxy'd, and/or software protects against anything "non-standard" being plugged in :-/

dj_mc_merlin 4y ago

I actually find it hard to switch from my "bad" hardware, I'm so used to one single small screen and average keyboard that it's how I do all my coding, despite having enough money to buy an expensive set up. I find it distracts me from my actual job, which is thinking.

judge2020 4y ago
At least a second monitor tends to be super useful, especially if you ever need to refer to documentation or another file while coding. To add, while this study isn't measuring actual productivity, people say they expect/feel like their productivity increased 40% with a second monitor: https://www.jonpeddie.com/press-releases/jon-peddie-research-multiple-displays-can-increase-productivity-by-42/ https://www.jonpeddie.com/press-releases/jon-peddie-research...
dmatech 4y ago
Having a lot of monitors might encourage multitasking beyond what one's attention span can handle. If you have 4 monitors, you'll be tempted to throw YouTube on one and news sites on the others. A single monitor forces you to replace your code editor with YouTube, and people are probably more hesitant to do this.
l30n4da5 4y ago
same. i've got 3 old monitors that just keep working. could I get a new widescreen to replace all three? Yeah. will I? Probably not.
UglyToad 4y ago
Strong same, I've been working on a 14" laptop for the past 2 years with no external monitor or keyboard. A second monitor makes me twice as productive at procrastinating. Given I can only reasonably have a single application open (which is an IDE with full documentation/intellisense inside) it means I'm forced to focus, apart from right now obviously.

lozenge 4y ago

Feeling valued is necessary for a junior. They deserve the same three monitors everybody else gets.

eurasiantiger 4y ago
I think devs would be better off having the equipment they need instead of everyone getting the same package. And yes, that includes juniors starting with a simple setup, and expand as they start to know what tools would make them more effective at the work they end up doing.
macspoofing 4y ago
>They deserve the same three monitors everybody else gets. I wouldn't make a strong statement like that. As a junior, you're just excited to be there, and gain experience. If the company policy is that you don't get the top-of-the-line hardware until you reach a certain professional milestone and this policy is applied equally then it's not the end of the world.
- HelloNurse 4y ago
  It's the not-even-beginning of the world. Why work for someone so cheap? Why fight for a monitor, where at a competitor you could fight fort a raise?
- MAGZine 4y ago
  You proffer that people should be fine being second-rate citizens so long as there is a policy outlining their second-ratedness? This is not the star-studded retention policy you think it is.
- MattGaiser 4y ago
  > As a junior, you're just excited to be there, and gain experience. For the first few months perhaps. Then a friend sends a pic of his setup and tells you that he will split a referral bonus with you if you apply. It took me 4 months to find my first dev job, once I hit the 6 month mark, jobs came to me in abundance.
4y ago

nsxwolf 4y ago

No one should be given garbage equipment to do this job. Doesn't anyone remember ergonomics?