3 ms·

I realize mine is not necessarily a majority experience, but as a young single no-debt high-performing worker, I can negotiate a lot more effectively by myself

I realize mine is not necessarily a majority experience, but as a young single no-debt high-performing worker, I can negotiate a lot more effectively by myself than I could in a union because I can argue purely on my own merits and if the employer is unreasonable (and not all are) it's fairly easy for me to switch employers. I even moved to a different country early in my career for a better career opportunity. So no, unions are not in my personal interest. Though as I said, I can appreciate there are others who are less mobile or less inclined to negotiate as aggressively for whatever reason for whom they are useful. As long as unions don't get in my way (e.g. by mafia-style locking down an industry I want to work in) then I have no problem with them.

stefan_ 4y ago
You think there are Amazon warehouse workers negotiating? You know this isn't really a full-day interview process, get to know the team kinda job right.
martimarkov 4y ago
You can still negotiate and be in a union. Nobody takes that away from you. The union negotiates minimal conditions for all like minimal wage. You are a top performer - go the exact route you've described - nobody will stop you. It can work or not as you've said and the solution would be to find a new job.
- junofan 4y ago
  In the US I believe there is no direct dealing, though I may be mistaken. Not sure about Canada. Presumably unions work differently (and likely better) in your country.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  This is 100%, extremely, dangerously, completely, utterly not the case in any North American union I've witnessed in North America. (it probably explains why it is difficult to have meaningful conversations and everybody attacks each other, if we have such radically different experiences and knowledge of union laws and procedures) FWIW, from my experience, In North America, it is the whole point of a union that "everybody gets the same" --> pay scale in particular. To make it explicit - if I'm in a union, I know EXACTLY how much anybody in any particular position makes. I can look it up in the pay scale table. I know how much my teacher cousin makes, I know how much my government friend makes, I know how much anybody at my brother-in-law's factory makes, by looking at the pay scale table. I would be eager to hear about other countries. Maybe unions are different in Europe or Asia or Africa etc. As I indicated above in a more detailed post, I am 100% supportive of unions in general, and have had 100% negative experience in North American unions in particular.
  - Xylakant 4y ago
    (Preface: This is simplifying and likely wrong to some extend, but my mother held a somewhat high post in a german union for a while, so I have some exposure) In germany, the union does not directly determine the pay rate. Membership in a union at a very fundamental level allows you to participate in the union activities, access to their resources (+) and the right to strike for work-related reasons (++). Unions can participate in the organization of the work place when there are sufficient union members in a company by forming a workers council (Betriebsrat), which must be involved in certain kinds of decisions, for example firing people. Forming a workers council is a deliberate act - union membership is required, but there’s not automatism. None of this limits the ability of each union members or employee to negotiate pay rates. On the employers side, you optionally (+++) can negotiate (or join a pre-negotiated) Tarifvertrag which covers topics such as pay grades, work time etc. There’s for example the TvÖD (Tarifvetrag öffentlicher Dienst) which covers all employees of the state/local governments, teachers etc. There‘s the option to join a Arbeitgeberverband (employers union), which then can negotiate that contract with the unions, so that the employers side gets a better negotiating position. A Tarifvertrag can be declared as „allgemeingültig“ which means that it covers all employees in a certain sector and the employer must conform to it, whether they like it or not. But even the Tarifvertrag only sets a minimum bar - every employee can negotiate better rates. Whether that succeeds is a question of its own - for example teachers usually can‘t negotiate a higher salary since their individual negotiating power against the state is veeeery limited. But that’s not a legal requirement or limit - übertariflich (above Tarif) is a common word found in job descriptions where the employees have more leverage. That said, there’s still problem you can have in unions - nepotism, people using a union job to slack off, protecting employees that should be fired are things that happen. But those happen in every power structure - I’ve seen the same thing happen where „favorite“ employees have been shielded by their boss from negative consequences. So that’s a fairly unspecific point to hold against unions - at least the representatives are elected by the workers and egregious examples are usually purged sooner or later. (+) for example legal advice and also legal services - my mother fought their employer over employment-related matters and the union sent their lawyer. (++) only unions are allowed to organize a strike https://www.personalwissen.de/arbeitsrecht/mitbestimmung/gewerkschaft/streikrecht-gewerkschaft/ https://www.personalwissen.de/arbeitsrecht/mitbestimmung/gew... (+++) optionally can include „my workers forced me by striking“
- phil21 4y ago
  > You can still negotiate and be in a union. Nobody takes that away from you. Not correct for any union job I've held, or even heard of. > You are a top performer - go the exact route you've described - nobody will stop you. I mean, I guess you could try this - or just go to a non-union shop and make real money if you are a top performer. Unions in the US are not made for top performers capable of advancing their careers rapidly. I think you will find plenty of people stopping you in this scenario. If the subject in question somehow did manage to follow your advice and somehow get paid above their peers - from my direct personal experience I'd expect a very toxic workplace up to and including physical violence once the other members find out. You would be seen as a scab.
phabricator 4y ago
How does being union stop you from negotiating for yourself or switching employers?
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Part of your agreement with the union is usually that you will not negotiate independently. You’d be disciplined by the union.
  - phabricator 4y ago
    That's too broad, you can negotiate things like salary independently. Other things you cannot, and it's often to prevent them from saying "Sally agreed to lower her vacation time to 2 weeks, is that ok with you too?" I still didn't hear how it prevents you from switching employers.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > That's too broad, you can negotiate things like salary independently. For example I worked with a school where the area management and the union set salaries and individual teachers could not negotiate on their own. I'd say that's pretty typical in unions. It's also the case in for example the NHS and British railways (topical at the moment.) > I still didn't hear how it prevents you from switching employers. Because I never said it did.
Xylakant 4y ago
So what happens if you ever stop being a young single no-debt high-performing worker. For example because you marry. Because you start having kids. Because you’re injured in your workplace. Because some medical procedure bankrupts you. Because you grow older? Solidarity is always give and take. You give while you can, so that someone can give to you when you need to. You definitely can try to ride all of the ups and downs your life has in store for you but if you’re unlucky, your life will have something that you can’t handle on your own.

stefan_ 4y ago

You think there are Amazon warehouse workers negotiating? You know this isn't really a full-day interview process, get to know the team kinda job right.

martimarkov 4y ago

You can still negotiate and be in a union. Nobody takes that away from you. The union negotiates minimal conditions for all like minimal wage. You are a top performer - go the exact route you've described - nobody will stop you. It can work or not as you've said and the solution would be to find a new job.

junofan 4y ago
In the US I believe there is no direct dealing, though I may be mistaken. Not sure about Canada. Presumably unions work differently (and likely better) in your country.
NikolaNovak 4y ago
This is 100%, extremely, dangerously, completely, utterly not the case in any North American union I've witnessed in North America. (it probably explains why it is difficult to have meaningful conversations and everybody attacks each other, if we have such radically different experiences and knowledge of union laws and procedures) FWIW, from my experience, In North America, it is the whole point of a union that "everybody gets the same" --> pay scale in particular. To make it explicit - if I'm in a union, I know EXACTLY how much anybody in any particular position makes. I can look it up in the pay scale table. I know how much my teacher cousin makes, I know how much my government friend makes, I know how much anybody at my brother-in-law's factory makes, by looking at the pay scale table. I would be eager to hear about other countries. Maybe unions are different in Europe or Asia or Africa etc. As I indicated above in a more detailed post, I am 100% supportive of unions in general, and have had 100% negative experience in North American unions in particular.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  (Preface: This is simplifying and likely wrong to some extend, but my mother held a somewhat high post in a german union for a while, so I have some exposure) In germany, the union does not directly determine the pay rate. Membership in a union at a very fundamental level allows you to participate in the union activities, access to their resources (+) and the right to strike for work-related reasons (++). Unions can participate in the organization of the work place when there are sufficient union members in a company by forming a workers council (Betriebsrat), which must be involved in certain kinds of decisions, for example firing people. Forming a workers council is a deliberate act - union membership is required, but there’s not automatism. None of this limits the ability of each union members or employee to negotiate pay rates. On the employers side, you optionally (+++) can negotiate (or join a pre-negotiated) Tarifvertrag which covers topics such as pay grades, work time etc. There’s for example the TvÖD (Tarifvetrag öffentlicher Dienst) which covers all employees of the state/local governments, teachers etc. There‘s the option to join a Arbeitgeberverband (employers union), which then can negotiate that contract with the unions, so that the employers side gets a better negotiating position. A Tarifvertrag can be declared as „allgemeingültig“ which means that it covers all employees in a certain sector and the employer must conform to it, whether they like it or not. But even the Tarifvertrag only sets a minimum bar - every employee can negotiate better rates. Whether that succeeds is a question of its own - for example teachers usually can‘t negotiate a higher salary since their individual negotiating power against the state is veeeery limited. But that’s not a legal requirement or limit - übertariflich (above Tarif) is a common word found in job descriptions where the employees have more leverage. That said, there’s still problem you can have in unions - nepotism, people using a union job to slack off, protecting employees that should be fired are things that happen. But those happen in every power structure - I’ve seen the same thing happen where „favorite“ employees have been shielded by their boss from negative consequences. So that’s a fairly unspecific point to hold against unions - at least the representatives are elected by the workers and egregious examples are usually purged sooner or later. (+) for example legal advice and also legal services - my mother fought their employer over employment-related matters and the union sent their lawyer. (++) only unions are allowed to organize a strike https://www.personalwissen.de/arbeitsrecht/mitbestimmung/gewerkschaft/streikrecht-gewerkschaft/ https://www.personalwissen.de/arbeitsrecht/mitbestimmung/gew... (+++) optionally can include „my workers forced me by striking“
phil21 4y ago
> You can still negotiate and be in a union. Nobody takes that away from you. Not correct for any union job I've held, or even heard of. > You are a top performer - go the exact route you've described - nobody will stop you. I mean, I guess you could try this - or just go to a non-union shop and make real money if you are a top performer. Unions in the US are not made for top performers capable of advancing their careers rapidly. I think you will find plenty of people stopping you in this scenario. If the subject in question somehow did manage to follow your advice and somehow get paid above their peers - from my direct personal experience I'd expect a very toxic workplace up to and including physical violence once the other members find out. You would be seen as a scab.

phabricator 4y ago

How does being union stop you from negotiating for yourself or switching employers?

chrisseaton 4y ago
Part of your agreement with the union is usually that you will not negotiate independently. You’d be disciplined by the union.
- phabricator 4y ago
  That's too broad, you can negotiate things like salary independently. Other things you cannot, and it's often to prevent them from saying "Sally agreed to lower her vacation time to 2 weeks, is that ok with you too?" I still didn't hear how it prevents you from switching employers.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > That's too broad, you can negotiate things like salary independently. For example I worked with a school where the area management and the union set salaries and individual teachers could not negotiate on their own. I'd say that's pretty typical in unions. It's also the case in for example the NHS and British railways (topical at the moment.) > I still didn't hear how it prevents you from switching employers. Because I never said it did.

Xylakant 4y ago

So what happens if you ever stop being a young single no-debt high-performing worker. For example because you marry. Because you start having kids. Because you’re injured in your workplace. Because some medical procedure bankrupts you. Because you grow older? Solidarity is always give and take. You give while you can, so that someone can give to you when you need to. You definitely can try to ride all of the ups and downs your life has in store for you but if you’re unlucky, your life will have something that you can’t handle on your own.