4 ms·

I've been learning Zig and it seems that Zig and D have a lot of things in common. With Zig one can readily import C code as well, and with `c-call-convention`

by brabel 4y ago

I've been learning Zig and it seems that Zig and D have a lot of things in common. With Zig one can readily import C code as well, and with `c-call-convention` any Zig function can be made callable from C. However, I've run into lots of bugs in Zig so I got a little disillusioned... how do you think D compares with Zig? Is it able to produce as efficient and small binaries, cross-compile to most platforms, metaprogramming etc?

speps 4y ago
D's standard lib is also a lot more mature than Zig's, obviously because of its age. I'd recommend D above Zig unless you want to contribute bug fixes to Zig.
- cyber_kinetist 4y ago
  But isn’t most of the D standard library unusable with BetterC mode (without GC)?
  - Shadonototra 4y ago
    BetterC is not no GC mode, BetterC was made to make sharing D code easier with C GC only exist if you call ``new MyThing`` Just use your allocators with malloc/free, that is what i do (you do the same in zig, allocators) if you want to enforce no GC use in your APIs, there is the @nogc attribute you can use
    - OskarS 4y ago
      > Just use your allocators with malloc/free, that is what i do (you do the same in zig, allocators) If you do that, is it RAII like C++/Rust? Objects get destructed at end of scope, and members get destructed recursively? Or do you have to manually call `free()` on everything? (which, granted, is significantly easier in languages with `defer` mechanisms)
      - nicwilson 4y ago
        RAII, though there is also `scope(exit)`
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        Yes, it is RAII and RAII is fully implemented in D.
        alphaglosined 4y ago
        But only for structs. We really need to get actual reference counting into the language to cover classes properly as well. It has been on my todo list to write a DIP for this for a while now. ~rikki.
        ntrel 4y ago
        Class instances can go on the stack too using `scope`: scope obj = new Object; ... // destroyed at end of scope
      - Shadonototra 4y ago
        D has defer scope(exit): scope(failure): scope(success): https://tour.dlang.org/tour/en/gems/scope-guards https://tour.dlang.org/tour/en/gems/scope-guards You can do RAII with D too, it's your choice, based on your use case
  - mhh__ 4y ago
    BetterC is a hack designed to make it easier to migrate C code to D. It turns off everything that requires a runtime not just the GC
nicwilson 4y ago
> how do you think D compares with Zig? Disclaimer, I've never used Zig, so the following are not comparative. > Is it able to produce as efficient and small binaries, There are compiler flags to disable linking to the D standard library and D runtime if you need small binaries (you can still use templates that end up in you binary) though most of the time that is more of a loss than gain (in terms of productivity), its not bloated unless you abuse templates a lot as would happen in C++. As for speed of execution, don't use DMD if you care about the it. LDC (the LLVM D Compiler) and GDC (which is part of the GCC) are both strong optimisers. cross-compile to most platforms, Yes, use LDC. GDC, like GCC, is not a cross compiler by default though you can build it to be, DMD is X86(64) only. > metaprogramming etc? Oh, yes. Compile time function evaluation (referred to usually as CTFE) in combination with mixins (interpret string as code), `static foreach`, `static if` and (much safer than C++) templates makes for a very potent package.
- cyber_kinetist 4y ago
  If I want to use D as a scripting language, I would like to have access to at least the core parts of the standard library (strings, lists, hashmaps, etc.), which I can’t without GC. I really don’t have time and energy to implement my own data structures when trying to prototyping gameplay code.
  - bachmeier 4y ago
    > If I want to use D as a scripting language, I would like to have access to at least the core parts of the standard library (strings, lists, hashmaps, etc.), which I can’t without GC. How is it a "scripting language" if you don't want a GC? I use D for the vast majority of my scripting these days, but it would be odd for me to avoid the GC. I would not even think about using it if I had to deal with that.
    - cyber_kinetist 4y ago
      I wasn’t talking about GC in general, but the GC in Dlang. With the GC turned off in D you can’t use most of the standard library. You can certainly use the std without relying on GC in languages like Rust, Swift, etc, but the important thing is that you can’t in D. I’m sure it can be technically done, but nobody has actually put the effort to do it.
Shadonototra 4y ago
Zig is still new, so it has room to improve While i like Zig, it has many ergonomics issues that i just can't deal with.. and it has the tendency to make your code unnecessary verbose - no operator overloading for your math type, you end up chaining methods.. - no function overloading, you have to do things like 'add(comptime T: type, x: antype, y: anytype)` then: add(f32, myX, myY); then be prepared with a shit ton of @floatCast(), it can't guess what type you use so you forced to be doubly explicit.. you end up with code that is barely readable - unused as error, this one hurts a lot.. you can say goodbye to fast iteration time, if you make a game it'll be painful Zig is still great, i plan to use it for some project, knowing how to use more language helps train your skills and understand pros/cons of features better You can crosscompile with D too ldc2 -mtriple=x86_64-windows-msvc -c foo.d Metaprogramming is great, you get more power with D, mixin, proper templates, type introspection You can link without the runtime if size is a concern, i haven't had any issues with it
- Shadonototra 4y ago
  While D is great, it also has some issues - float default is NaN, why... just WHY!!!!! - char default is 0xFF.... when you expect things to be just 0, it is a pain to deal with and to remember... Also the standard library, while useful, i wish it would make use of allocators They have ``std.experimental.allocator`` packages, for some reason it still is experimental.. There is no tagged union.. you have to import a package for it ``std.sumtype``.. wich is bad when all other languages have built in support for that Walter if you read this, please! union are useful, but lack of tagged union mean potential bugs in your union when you pick the wrong value... Proposal for you: enum MyTag { A, B, C} union MyTaggedUnion: MyTag { DataA A, DataB B, DataC C } struct DataA{} struct DataB{} struct DataC{} auto tgu = MyTaggedUnion.B; switch (tgu) { case A: tgu. /* implicit DataA */ break; // need to implement every tags, or error }
  - jhgb 4y ago
    > float default is NaN, why... just WHY!!!!! > char default is 0xFF.... Invalid values, perhaps? Other than making initialization mandatory, this seems like a reasonable way of catching them. For integer types it's not really possible because all their values are valid.

by brabel 4y ago

speps 4y ago

D's standard lib is also a lot more mature than Zig's, obviously because of its age. I'd recommend D above Zig unless you want to contribute bug fixes to Zig.

cyber_kinetist 4y ago
But isn’t most of the D standard library unusable with BetterC mode (without GC)?
- Shadonototra 4y ago
  BetterC is not no GC mode, BetterC was made to make sharing D code easier with C GC only exist if you call ``new MyThing`` Just use your allocators with malloc/free, that is what i do (you do the same in zig, allocators) if you want to enforce no GC use in your APIs, there is the @nogc attribute you can use
  - OskarS 4y ago
    > Just use your allocators with malloc/free, that is what i do (you do the same in zig, allocators) If you do that, is it RAII like C++/Rust? Objects get destructed at end of scope, and members get destructed recursively? Or do you have to manually call `free()` on everything? (which, granted, is significantly easier in languages with `defer` mechanisms)
    - nicwilson 4y ago
      RAII, though there is also `scope(exit)`
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      Yes, it is RAII and RAII is fully implemented in D.
      - alphaglosined 4y ago
        But only for structs. We really need to get actual reference counting into the language to cover classes properly as well. It has been on my todo list to write a DIP for this for a while now. ~rikki.
        ntrel 4y ago
        Class instances can go on the stack too using `scope`: scope obj = new Object; ... // destroyed at end of scope
    - Shadonototra 4y ago
      D has defer scope(exit): scope(failure): scope(success): https://tour.dlang.org/tour/en/gems/scope-guards https://tour.dlang.org/tour/en/gems/scope-guards You can do RAII with D too, it's your choice, based on your use case
- mhh__ 4y ago
  BetterC is a hack designed to make it easier to migrate C code to D. It turns off everything that requires a runtime not just the GC

nicwilson 4y ago

> how do you think D compares with Zig? Disclaimer, I've never used Zig, so the following are not comparative. > Is it able to produce as efficient and small binaries, There are compiler flags to disable linking to the D standard library and D runtime if you need small binaries (you can still use templates that end up in you binary) though most of the time that is more of a loss than gain (in terms of productivity), its not bloated unless you abuse templates a lot as would happen in C++. As for speed of execution, don't use DMD if you care about the it. LDC (the LLVM D Compiler) and GDC (which is part of the GCC) are both strong optimisers. cross-compile to most platforms, Yes, use LDC. GDC, like GCC, is not a cross compiler by default though you can build it to be, DMD is X86(64) only. > metaprogramming etc? Oh, yes. Compile time function evaluation (referred to usually as CTFE) in combination with mixins (interpret string as code), `static foreach`, `static if` and (much safer than C++) templates makes for a very potent package.

cyber_kinetist 4y ago
If I want to use D as a scripting language, I would like to have access to at least the core parts of the standard library (strings, lists, hashmaps, etc.), which I can’t without GC. I really don’t have time and energy to implement my own data structures when trying to prototyping gameplay code.
- bachmeier 4y ago
  > If I want to use D as a scripting language, I would like to have access to at least the core parts of the standard library (strings, lists, hashmaps, etc.), which I can’t without GC. How is it a "scripting language" if you don't want a GC? I use D for the vast majority of my scripting these days, but it would be odd for me to avoid the GC. I would not even think about using it if I had to deal with that.
  - cyber_kinetist 4y ago
    I wasn’t talking about GC in general, but the GC in Dlang. With the GC turned off in D you can’t use most of the standard library. You can certainly use the std without relying on GC in languages like Rust, Swift, etc, but the important thing is that you can’t in D. I’m sure it can be technically done, but nobody has actually put the effort to do it.

Shadonototra 4y ago

Zig is still new, so it has room to improve While i like Zig, it has many ergonomics issues that i just can't deal with.. and it has the tendency to make your code unnecessary verbose - no operator overloading for your math type, you end up chaining methods.. - no function overloading, you have to do things like 'add(comptime T: type, x: antype, y: anytype)` then: add(f32, myX, myY); then be prepared with a shit ton of @floatCast(), it can't guess what type you use so you forced to be doubly explicit.. you end up with code that is barely readable - unused as error, this one hurts a lot.. you can say goodbye to fast iteration time, if you make a game it'll be painful Zig is still great, i plan to use it for some project, knowing how to use more language helps train your skills and understand pros/cons of features better You can crosscompile with D too ldc2 -mtriple=x86_64-windows-msvc -c foo.d Metaprogramming is great, you get more power with D, mixin, proper templates, type introspection You can link without the runtime if size is a concern, i haven't had any issues with it

Shadonototra 4y ago
While D is great, it also has some issues - float default is NaN, why... just WHY!!!!! - char default is 0xFF.... when you expect things to be just 0, it is a pain to deal with and to remember... Also the standard library, while useful, i wish it would make use of allocators They have ``std.experimental.allocator`` packages, for some reason it still is experimental.. There is no tagged union.. you have to import a package for it ``std.sumtype``.. wich is bad when all other languages have built in support for that Walter if you read this, please! union are useful, but lack of tagged union mean potential bugs in your union when you pick the wrong value... Proposal for you: enum MyTag { A, B, C} union MyTaggedUnion: MyTag { DataA A, DataB B, DataC C } struct DataA{} struct DataB{} struct DataC{} auto tgu = MyTaggedUnion.B; switch (tgu) { case A: tgu. /* implicit DataA */ break; // need to implement every tags, or error }
- jhgb 4y ago
  > float default is NaN, why... just WHY!!!!! > char default is 0xFF.... Invalid values, perhaps? Other than making initialization mandatory, this seems like a reasonable way of catching them. For integer types it's not really possible because all their values are valid.