4 ms·

I'll agree that if you are a member of a church and enjoy church service, you should pay church taxes, too - I'd go even further and say (as an atheist myself)

by 9dev 4y ago

I'll agree that if you are a member of a church and enjoy church service, you should pay church taxes, too - I'd go even further and say (as an atheist myself) if you're a believer and believe that churches do good things, even if you don't go there often or take advantage of everything that's offered to you, you have an obligation by your very faith to help by paying your share. Then again, I'm completely stumped as to why the government of a secular country (by constitution!) would ever involve so deeply in clerical matters that it would collect taxes for them, free of charge. That system is so dated and out of place for a modern society, I'm not surprised foreigners are very much irritated by it. Another issue is that you have to pay to opt out of being a member obliged to pay the tax. This is not about the amount (~10-60€), but the fact that all children of christian parents end up being church members before they're even old enough to decide for themselves, thus having to pay the tax or pay to opt out. The same applies to foreigners unaware of this. If churches had no tax to rely on, maybe they'd be more engaged to not continually loose members...

Swenrekcah 4y ago
I agree with all you said. A similar system is in place where I live but the best argument I’ve heard in favour of keeping it is simply this: If you take the relatively small state funding away and make the churches seek members to fund themselves, then be prepared that they will go and do just that. We might get American style megachurches with everything that comes with them, real fast. I realise it is an argument based on fear, but oh do I fear it.
- InCityDreams 4y ago
  I'm up for this - Europe needs mega-churches! There are about forty churches near me...they take turns in rotating the congregations around, so (for example) i get fucked by the traffic every eight weeks, in a five week loop, depending on the particular church. One giant church, also televised or streamed, would be fuckin' A. On the other hand, looking atvthe German modrl, would i have to pay to opt out of the streaming service?
nicbou 4y ago
That's a misunderstanding. Your church decided to task the government with this. The government takes a cut for the trouble. So no, it's not done free of charge.
tut-urut-utut 4y ago
> Then again, I'm completely stumped as to why the government of a secular country (by constitution!) would ever involve so deeply in clerical matters that it would collect taxes for them, free of charge. This topic has its history. Agree it's outdated, but at least the state gets paid for the service of collecting membership from church member. > That system is so dated and out of place for a modern society, I'm not surprised foreigners are very much irritated by it. Foreigners and their unawareness or awareness of anything are not a group important enough for any state to consider their legislation. > Another issue is that you have to pay to opt out of being a member obliged to pay the tax. This is not about the amount (~10-60€), but the fact that all children of christian parents end up being church members before they're even old enough to decide for themselves, thus having to pay the tax or pay to opt out. But it is an opt-in, although outdated. First, your parents sign you up. Then, during the confirmation, you decide you want to keep your membership. I said outdated here because historically, confirmation was an entry point to adulthood, and it was considered that they were grown up to accept or reject church membership. It's only a modern-day habit and regulation that we consider 18 years old as adults. Anyways, people usually know they are baptised and that they will have to pay church tax. Many enjoy 18 years of trial membership for free before they cancel the subscription, or let it continue, depending on their personal preference. > The same applies to foreigners unaware of this. Like in any other country, foreigners are expected to get themselves familiar with local laws before moving to a country. Latest after first pay cheque, they are aware they are paying church fee. What I see about some foreigners is they complain they have to pay church tax, but don't want to leave the church because of "reasons". Well, sorry, guys, at least one third of Germans did exactly that, left the church, partially because they would rather not pay. If your church membership is worth it to you, just pay and shut up, if it's not, cancel it. If you want that other pay for your church membership, go to other country where churches get tax money from everyone. I also don't complain that I can't get Amazon Prime free of charge. > If churches had no tax to rely on, maybe they'd be more engaged to not continually loose members... I'm fine with them having to struggle to provide a better service. Also fine with them losing members.

by 9dev 4y ago

Swenrekcah 4y ago

I agree with all you said. A similar system is in place where I live but the best argument I’ve heard in favour of keeping it is simply this: If you take the relatively small state funding away and make the churches seek members to fund themselves, then be prepared that they will go and do just that. We might get American style megachurches with everything that comes with them, real fast. I realise it is an argument based on fear, but oh do I fear it.

InCityDreams 4y ago
I'm up for this - Europe needs mega-churches! There are about forty churches near me...they take turns in rotating the congregations around, so (for example) i get fucked by the traffic every eight weeks, in a five week loop, depending on the particular church. One giant church, also televised or streamed, would be fuckin' A. On the other hand, looking atvthe German modrl, would i have to pay to opt out of the streaming service?

nicbou 4y ago

That's a misunderstanding. Your church decided to task the government with this. The government takes a cut for the trouble. So no, it's not done free of charge.

tut-urut-utut 4y ago

> Then again, I'm completely stumped as to why the government of a secular country (by constitution!) would ever involve so deeply in clerical matters that it would collect taxes for them, free of charge. This topic has its history. Agree it's outdated, but at least the state gets paid for the service of collecting membership from church member. > That system is so dated and out of place for a modern society, I'm not surprised foreigners are very much irritated by it. Foreigners and their unawareness or awareness of anything are not a group important enough for any state to consider their legislation. > Another issue is that you have to pay to opt out of being a member obliged to pay the tax. This is not about the amount (~10-60€), but the fact that all children of christian parents end up being church members before they're even old enough to decide for themselves, thus having to pay the tax or pay to opt out. But it is an opt-in, although outdated. First, your parents sign you up. Then, during the confirmation, you decide you want to keep your membership. I said outdated here because historically, confirmation was an entry point to adulthood, and it was considered that they were grown up to accept or reject church membership. It's only a modern-day habit and regulation that we consider 18 years old as adults. Anyways, people usually know they are baptised and that they will have to pay church tax. Many enjoy 18 years of trial membership for free before they cancel the subscription, or let it continue, depending on their personal preference. > The same applies to foreigners unaware of this. Like in any other country, foreigners are expected to get themselves familiar with local laws before moving to a country. Latest after first pay cheque, they are aware they are paying church fee. What I see about some foreigners is they complain they have to pay church tax, but don't want to leave the church because of "reasons". Well, sorry, guys, at least one third of Germans did exactly that, left the church, partially because they would rather not pay. If your church membership is worth it to you, just pay and shut up, if it's not, cancel it. If you want that other pay for your church membership, go to other country where churches get tax money from everyone. I also don't complain that I can't get Amazon Prime free of charge. > If churches had no tax to rely on, maybe they'd be more engaged to not continually loose members... I'm fine with them having to struggle to provide a better service. Also fine with them losing members.