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If you need to do so much work to make a single carpool lane you really have to think if that is the best solution in the first place. You already have too many

If you need to do so much work to make a single carpool lane you really have to think if that is the best solution in the first place. You already have too many cars. The obvious solution is reducing the existing number of cars. Open a couple extra bus routes and turn one of the existing lanes into a bus lane.

sieabahlpark 4y ago
I'll tell you why that is a non starter. I live 25 miles away and I'm not riding a bus or chain of buses for 2-3 hours for work. I will drive myself directly to work and save myself 2 hours. I don't care if it's worse for the rest, you couldn't pay me to sit on a bus for 2-3 hours just so I can sit in an office for 8 and then make the whole trip home at the end of the day. Sorry not sorry.
- jewayne 4y ago
  You say that you won't ride a bus. But what I'm also hearing is that you really don't want to pay for a bus lane, either. That the very existence of public infrastructure that you will never use is a deep, personal affront to you. Am I hearing that clearly?
- elteto 4y ago
  The extra bus routes are not for you, but for other drivers that do live closer and can trade their car commute by a bus ride. This, in turn, alleviates road congestion for everyone else, _including_ people like you who have no option but to drive! So, ironically, what you are complaining about (and would probably vote against if given the choice) is something that could benefit you. But hey, at least you have your freedom or something.
  - akozak 4y ago
    This is really important to understand. Someone explained to me once how small changes (low single digit reduction) to cars on the road leads to huge congestion benefits. I'm sure someone on HN will have a good citation. Public transportation helps you have your luxury experience.
    - jewayne 4y ago
      Here's a video on the topic: ("Why Traffic Congestion Grows Exponentially, Why It Matters, and What To Do About It") https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHSCmQnGH9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHSCmQnGH9Q
  - sieabahlpark 4y ago
- stetrain 4y ago
  More people on the bus reduces traffic for you. And your example of a poor efficiency bus system (for your specific commute) is common but is usually a symptom of poor investment rather than an inherent problem with transit systems.
- noahtallen 4y ago
  This is a straw man argument, where you’re using a worst-case scenario for buses. A quick rail line could get you to the office in under an hour, and would beat traffic if it was designed well. Hell, buses ought to skip traffic via dedicated lanes since they’re carrying so many more people than a car. But it’s important to note that only takes 2-3 hours because public transit doesn’t get the investment it needs to be good. And even when cars do get an extreme amount of investment, it still takes you an hour to go 25 miles. It should be clear at this point that driving is not a scalable, general solution for quick, effective transit in areas with lots of people. The pretty simple reason is that traffic congestion is an exponential problem (https://youtu.be/cHSCmQnGH9Q https://youtu.be/cHSCmQnGH9Q). As a result, investing in car infrastructure is actually not a good way to improve your commute time. It may seem backwards, but since more car infrastructure encourages more drivers, and since more drivers increase congestion at an exponential rate, more car infrastructure tends to (at the best case) not improve the situation at all. This is why people like myself really try to push for investment in other forms of transit. If you have multiple, high-quality transit options, some people will pick the train, some will pick a bike, and others will pick a car. If biking and taking the train or bus is good enough that it gets a few drivers off the road, that makes the experience significantly better for you, as we are now decreasing congestion at an exponential rate. Even a handful of people using something else on a busy road can make a big difference in how long you wait at a traffic light. I’m advocating for you to have more freedom: more good choices and options available to you. Right now you have one choice, driving, and it isn’t even that good because you have to wait in traffic. Why wouldn’t it be better to have 2 or 3 excellent transit options? Even driving would be better. (https://youtu.be/d8RRE2rDw4k https://youtu.be/d8RRE2rDw4k) This isn’t so much about individual choice. (Though every driver is the congestion simply by using a car.) This isn’t so much about rural and remote areas either. This is about what we invest in to improve the quality of life and transit effectiveness in dense areas.
- Hellbanevil 4y ago
- sixstringtheory 4y ago
  Nobody should have to drive 25 miles to work in an office all day. At least not every single day. Another creative solution to reduce traffic is to work from home or a smaller satellite office that’s closer than that. Neighborhood coworking offices near local cafes, gyms etc make for nice walkability, bikability and drivability.
bergenty 4y ago
I like cars. It’s comfy and it’s freedom. I don’t care if you have the fastest, cleanest, cheapest public transport in the world. I don’t want to ride with other people.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  The existence of a bus doesn‘t force you to ride it. But if others do, that‘s less congestion for you. There are still plenty of drivers in NYC; one of the big plusses of the subway system is that it makes room for other people who want or need to drive more. Every single time the subway is out of service the roads totally lock up because the subways divert a lot of people.
  - thematrixturtle 4y ago
    As usual, the Onion nailed it years ago: https://www.theonion.com/report-98-percent-of-u-s-commuters-favor-public-trans-1819565837 https://www.theonion.com/report-98-percent-of-u-s-commuters-...
    - stetrain 4y ago
      Except the real issue is those who don’t want to spend or approve anything on public transit, even for others to use. “We should build transit infrastructure so everyone else can use it and I can keep driving” would be an improvement in mindset many parts of the country.
- akozak 4y ago
  No one is arguing for that. Supporting public transportation for others will help you maintain your luxury driving experience.
- stetrain 4y ago
  Then you should be in favor of more high-density public transport to get the ever-increasing traffic off of the roads so you can still enjoy your car.
- 4y ago
incanus77 4y ago
That's the most shocking/appalling part of this. > A carpool lane was to be added to reduce congestion on a 10-mile stretch of Los Angeles’s I-405 freeway, the second most congested road in the U.S. From https://www.vox.com/2014/10/23/6994159/traffic-roads-induced-demand https://www.vox.com/2014/10/23/6994159/traffic-roads-induced... : > By way of illustration, consider the following situation: there's a store where you know you can save $10 on something you need to buy, but it's 10 miles away. If you assume there will be terrible traffic and it'll take 30 minutes to get there, you'll just buy the product at a closer store. However, if a new lane gets added to a highway that will speed your journey there, you'll decide it's worth it. > Over time, thousands of people will make this calculation - along with similar ones, like deciding to drive a few blocks rather than walk, because it'll be faster, or choosing to move farther from work, in exchange for a bigger house, because they assume the distance can be covered quickly. Eventually, they increased miles they drive will go a long way towards filling up the new, expensive roads that municipalities went to so much trouble to build.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
sexy_seedbox 4y ago
I think we need to go even further back with our thinking before cars even come into the picture. City planning with great public transit and walkability first, then think of cars.

sieabahlpark 4y ago

I'll tell you why that is a non starter. I live 25 miles away and I'm not riding a bus or chain of buses for 2-3 hours for work. I will drive myself directly to work and save myself 2 hours. I don't care if it's worse for the rest, you couldn't pay me to sit on a bus for 2-3 hours just so I can sit in an office for 8 and then make the whole trip home at the end of the day. Sorry not sorry.

jewayne 4y ago
You say that you won't ride a bus. But what I'm also hearing is that you really don't want to pay for a bus lane, either. That the very existence of public infrastructure that you will never use is a deep, personal affront to you. Am I hearing that clearly?
elteto 4y ago
The extra bus routes are not for you, but for other drivers that do live closer and can trade their car commute by a bus ride. This, in turn, alleviates road congestion for everyone else, _including_ people like you who have no option but to drive! So, ironically, what you are complaining about (and would probably vote against if given the choice) is something that could benefit you. But hey, at least you have your freedom or something.
- akozak 4y ago
  This is really important to understand. Someone explained to me once how small changes (low single digit reduction) to cars on the road leads to huge congestion benefits. I'm sure someone on HN will have a good citation. Public transportation helps you have your luxury experience.
  - jewayne 4y ago
    Here's a video on the topic: ("Why Traffic Congestion Grows Exponentially, Why It Matters, and What To Do About It") https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHSCmQnGH9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHSCmQnGH9Q
- sieabahlpark 4y ago
stetrain 4y ago
More people on the bus reduces traffic for you. And your example of a poor efficiency bus system (for your specific commute) is common but is usually a symptom of poor investment rather than an inherent problem with transit systems.
noahtallen 4y ago
This is a straw man argument, where you’re using a worst-case scenario for buses. A quick rail line could get you to the office in under an hour, and would beat traffic if it was designed well. Hell, buses ought to skip traffic via dedicated lanes since they’re carrying so many more people than a car. But it’s important to note that only takes 2-3 hours because public transit doesn’t get the investment it needs to be good. And even when cars do get an extreme amount of investment, it still takes you an hour to go 25 miles. It should be clear at this point that driving is not a scalable, general solution for quick, effective transit in areas with lots of people. The pretty simple reason is that traffic congestion is an exponential problem (https://youtu.be/cHSCmQnGH9Q https://youtu.be/cHSCmQnGH9Q). As a result, investing in car infrastructure is actually not a good way to improve your commute time. It may seem backwards, but since more car infrastructure encourages more drivers, and since more drivers increase congestion at an exponential rate, more car infrastructure tends to (at the best case) not improve the situation at all. This is why people like myself really try to push for investment in other forms of transit. If you have multiple, high-quality transit options, some people will pick the train, some will pick a bike, and others will pick a car. If biking and taking the train or bus is good enough that it gets a few drivers off the road, that makes the experience significantly better for you, as we are now decreasing congestion at an exponential rate. Even a handful of people using something else on a busy road can make a big difference in how long you wait at a traffic light. I’m advocating for you to have more freedom: more good choices and options available to you. Right now you have one choice, driving, and it isn’t even that good because you have to wait in traffic. Why wouldn’t it be better to have 2 or 3 excellent transit options? Even driving would be better. (https://youtu.be/d8RRE2rDw4k https://youtu.be/d8RRE2rDw4k) This isn’t so much about individual choice. (Though every driver is the congestion simply by using a car.) This isn’t so much about rural and remote areas either. This is about what we invest in to improve the quality of life and transit effectiveness in dense areas.
Hellbanevil 4y ago
sixstringtheory 4y ago
Nobody should have to drive 25 miles to work in an office all day. At least not every single day. Another creative solution to reduce traffic is to work from home or a smaller satellite office that’s closer than that. Neighborhood coworking offices near local cafes, gyms etc make for nice walkability, bikability and drivability.

bergenty 4y ago

I like cars. It’s comfy and it’s freedom. I don’t care if you have the fastest, cleanest, cheapest public transport in the world. I don’t want to ride with other people.

bobthepanda 4y ago
The existence of a bus doesn‘t force you to ride it. But if others do, that‘s less congestion for you. There are still plenty of drivers in NYC; one of the big plusses of the subway system is that it makes room for other people who want or need to drive more. Every single time the subway is out of service the roads totally lock up because the subways divert a lot of people.
- thematrixturtle 4y ago
  As usual, the Onion nailed it years ago: https://www.theonion.com/report-98-percent-of-u-s-commuters-favor-public-trans-1819565837 https://www.theonion.com/report-98-percent-of-u-s-commuters-...
  - stetrain 4y ago
    Except the real issue is those who don’t want to spend or approve anything on public transit, even for others to use. “We should build transit infrastructure so everyone else can use it and I can keep driving” would be an improvement in mindset many parts of the country.
akozak 4y ago
No one is arguing for that. Supporting public transportation for others will help you maintain your luxury driving experience.
stetrain 4y ago
Then you should be in favor of more high-density public transport to get the ever-increasing traffic off of the roads so you can still enjoy your car.
4y ago

incanus77 4y ago

That's the most shocking/appalling part of this. > A carpool lane was to be added to reduce congestion on a 10-mile stretch of Los Angeles’s I-405 freeway, the second most congested road in the U.S. From https://www.vox.com/2014/10/23/6994159/traffic-roads-induced-demand https://www.vox.com/2014/10/23/6994159/traffic-roads-induced... : > By way of illustration, consider the following situation: there's a store where you know you can save $10 on something you need to buy, but it's 10 miles away. If you assume there will be terrible traffic and it'll take 30 minutes to get there, you'll just buy the product at a closer store. However, if a new lane gets added to a highway that will speed your journey there, you'll decide it's worth it. > Over time, thousands of people will make this calculation - along with similar ones, like deciding to drive a few blocks rather than walk, because it'll be faster, or choosing to move farther from work, in exchange for a bigger house, because they assume the distance can be covered quickly. Eventually, they increased miles they drive will go a long way towards filling up the new, expensive roads that municipalities went to so much trouble to build.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

sexy_seedbox 4y ago

I think we need to go even further back with our thinking before cars even come into the picture. City planning with great public transit and walkability first, then think of cars.