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The quote that resonated the most with me here went something like: Life is a series of bricks, placed day by day, to build the foundation of life. I’d take it

The quote that resonated the most with me here went something like: Life is a series of bricks, placed day by day, to build the foundation of life. I’d take it one step further and say life also has compounding returns. What you invest today yields returns tomorrow. Not all hobbies yield the same returns. Gaming as a hobby offers a flat return. The time you put in is the time you get out. There is no progress outside the bounds of the game (except for some fuzzier returns about societal commentaries and personal growth on par with the returns on a fantasy novel - or the future returns of making a game yourself). The returns of a hobby like glass blowing is the improved ability to create on the other side of engaging in the hobby. Every piece you make sets the stage for the next piece. It’s a compounding return where the investment you make today is part of the return you get out of tomorrow’s investment. I still play games, watch TV, and read fiction. But I no longer engage with them the way I used to. Now I engage with hobbies that yield compounding returns because tomorrow’s happiness is just as important as today’s.

dota_fanatic 4y ago
> Gaming as a hobby offers a flat return. Not all games, and not for all definitions of playing them. Some games are tests and potentially builders of skill of various kinds, and the investments made are compounding: self control in the face of stress, economic decision-making, system design, tactical thinking in 3D space, and so on. Some games allow us to go Elsewhere and we change profoundly as a result. Games aren’t created equally!
bricestacey 4y ago
You can set the stage for the next level so to speak in either glass blowing or some video game. Not really following your argument. Blowing glass is a hobby. Today's multi-user video games are a competition. That's the real difference. Unless you're exceptional, no one cares about either one. So probably best to do whatever makes you happy.
wildmanx 4y ago
> I’d take it one step further and say life also has compounding returns. What you invest today yields returns tomorrow. [...] > [...] Now I engage with hobbies that yield compounding returns because tomorrow’s happiness is just as important as today’s. You may not realize it, but this defer-happiness-to-the-future attitude is what the original article is recommending against: Putting things off for the future is the biggest waste of a life. You deny yourself the present by promising the future. You’re relying on the future, which is outside of your control, and abandoning the present, which is the only thing you can control. The whole future lies in uncertainty – live immediately.
- ivan1783 4y ago
  I wouldn't say that building on your skillset as (in this example) a skilled craftsman is deferring happiness. You still enjoy what you create today, even if its not as good as what you will create one year from now. I do woodworking and metalworking as hobbies - I've always enjoyed the process and the improvement I see in my work. Its about the journey not so much the end result.
  - wildmanx 4y ago
    Absolutely! But that's not what I was replying to. That was, roughly, about depriving you of certain joys today in order to increase potential for future joy. Which is what the "Life is not short" article is arguing against.
    - r3trohack3r 4y ago
      > tomorrow’s happiness is just as important as today’s. Aye - I agree with you. The point I was trying to articulate: hobbies with linear returns traded tomorrow’s increased happiness for today’s happiness. Hobbies with compounding returns still get me today’s happiness! But, after investing in that type of hobby, tomorrow I’ll be capable of more “hobbies” than I am today. Especially when hobbies begin to cross-over (I.e. chemistry and glass blowing)!
Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
Games and TV may mostly give a flat return, but I don't think that's the case with reading fiction. That hones your linguistic skills, your imagination and storytelling skills, can sometimes give you critical insights (e.g., the classic dystopias), and last but not least, can enhance your attention span in an age where many of us are used to jumping from short piece to short piece online and it seems difficult to gather enough time or attention to read a book. Of course you will learn even more if you read essays, but I think if reading books in general is widely regarded as a good thing to do, it's for good reason.
- YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
  This seems like you're comparing the likes of 1984 to the likes of Genshin Impact. If we instead choose Opus Magnum as our example of a game, and 50 Shades of Grey for as our example of a book, one would conclude the opposite. Someone with a taste for timewasting games isn't going to suddenly become an intellectual because they picked up a piece of dead tree if the words written on said dead tree are as empty as the game they just put down, and there's more than enough bland genre fiction out there for them to be attracted to.
newswasboring 4y ago
I find it weird that your gold standard of a good hobby is the ability to produce. I personally think those "fuzzier returns" you sort of disregarded are far more important. Also, particularly in video games, each time you engage in it you get better. I've been recently trying to get back into video games after over a decade of off time. The gap I feel is tremendous. Gamers have advanced so far ahead that a good gamer from 2000s will have incredible amount of trouble playing newer games.
- parasti 4y ago
  And yet, you are only "getting better" at the game. Your in-game skills don't translate to the real world. Games have psychological and social benefits, but I don't think getting better at a game skillwise has really any transferrable value outside of the game itself. In fact, if you put more effort into improving your in-game skill, your real-world life usually suffers. (In my experience.)
  - Joeri 4y ago
    But to serious gamers, those interactions in and around those games are their real world. Say someone dedicates themselves to learning the piano, a Real World activity, and they enjoy it, and they can entertain others with their skill, why is that any more real than getting deep into a game? In the end we all die and take nothing with us, nor do we leave anything behind which will last all that long. If everything is ultimately futile, why make a distinction between one pursuit and another?
    - newswasboring 4y ago
      I second your sentiment, I think this articulates my thinking much better. I see people trying to prove that yes games have "transferrable skills" to "real life" and I am sitting here thinking, why does it matter? It's my hobby! PS: Used those quotes because I don't think people have clear idea about what they mean by those terms.
    - parasti 4y ago
      > In the end we all die and take nothing with us, nor do we leave anything behind which will last all that long. If everything is ultimately futile, why make a distinction between one pursuit and another? This viewpoint is destructive. Your actions affect your future and the futures of the people around you. They are not futile. When someone learns to play the piano, it becomes a tool that can be used in countless applications in a person's life. When you learn to wall jump in Metroid, you learn to wall jump in Metroid and maybe in some other games. The variety of application just isn't there. It's just not comparable.
YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
The productivity of most so-called 'productive' hobbies is an illusion. What does it mean to 'produce'? To transform something that doesn't have value into something that does have value? Value to whom? The output of the majority of hobbyists' work has no value to anyone but themselves, and if it has no value to anyone but the creator, it's just consumption with extra steps. And if it has financial value to other people, that's not hobby, that's a second job. There's a reason why most artistic pursuits are either completely nonviable as a profession or are a lottery where the top 0.01% become superstars and the rest barely break even or lose money. When the thing one 'produces' is something people will do for fun, supply massively outstrips demand, and more entries into the hobby doesn't produce more valuable items, it produces more tat that nobody wants.
- trwhite 4y ago
  I don't think they're talking about a physical 'product'. They're talking about building character, making themself a better person, learning a skill etc
  - YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
    If it's all about perceived self-improvement with no consideration for real-world applications or end products, there's no difference between practical skills and virtual ones. All that matters is that the person in question believes the experience to be valuable. EDIT: I guess it's worth mentioning a minor exception for basic life skills that some people do as hobbies, like sewing, gardening, DIY or cooking, but those have diminishing returns. You can probably learn everything you need to know to not be reliant on tradesmen or vendors for those sorts of things in a year, and beyond that you get stuck in the same place as the hobby craftsman or hobby artist, where the chance of real financial success is basically nil so you're just doing it because it's an activity you personally enjoy.
    - r3trohack3r 4y ago
      I can follow this. But where I’m getting tripped up: today I smoked out of a glass pipe I made. I can’t smoke out of my level 80 night elf druid. Nor can I combine my level 80 night elf druid with my Diamond IV rank in Halo to get a compounded return. Those two games and skills are isolated. But I can combine what I read in John Dalton’s A New System of Chemical Philosophy with glass blowing to make interesting things that bring me joy (I.e. replicating experiments of John’s at home with purpose built glassware) It’s not just production for productions sake, or production for the sake of society. It’s increasing my capacity to produce for myself. I feel like I’ve grown in a way that I can build on tomorrow after a session of practicing this class of hobby. Maybe the distinction truly is arbitrary - but something about this path feels significantly more fulfilling the further down it I go vs. the literal years I spent in virtual worlds. In the virtual worlds the potential felt roughly constant while these hobbies feel like they have an ever expanding horizon of potential.

dota_fanatic 4y ago

> Gaming as a hobby offers a flat return. Not all games, and not for all definitions of playing them. Some games are tests and potentially builders of skill of various kinds, and the investments made are compounding: self control in the face of stress, economic decision-making, system design, tactical thinking in 3D space, and so on. Some games allow us to go Elsewhere and we change profoundly as a result. Games aren’t created equally!

bricestacey 4y ago

You can set the stage for the next level so to speak in either glass blowing or some video game. Not really following your argument. Blowing glass is a hobby. Today's multi-user video games are a competition. That's the real difference. Unless you're exceptional, no one cares about either one. So probably best to do whatever makes you happy.

wildmanx 4y ago

> I’d take it one step further and say life also has compounding returns. What you invest today yields returns tomorrow. [...] > [...] Now I engage with hobbies that yield compounding returns because tomorrow’s happiness is just as important as today’s. You may not realize it, but this defer-happiness-to-the-future attitude is what the original article is recommending against: Putting things off for the future is the biggest waste of a life. You deny yourself the present by promising the future. You’re relying on the future, which is outside of your control, and abandoning the present, which is the only thing you can control. The whole future lies in uncertainty – live immediately.

ivan1783 4y ago
I wouldn't say that building on your skillset as (in this example) a skilled craftsman is deferring happiness. You still enjoy what you create today, even if its not as good as what you will create one year from now. I do woodworking and metalworking as hobbies - I've always enjoyed the process and the improvement I see in my work. Its about the journey not so much the end result.
- wildmanx 4y ago
  Absolutely! But that's not what I was replying to. That was, roughly, about depriving you of certain joys today in order to increase potential for future joy. Which is what the "Life is not short" article is arguing against.
  - r3trohack3r 4y ago
    > tomorrow’s happiness is just as important as today’s. Aye - I agree with you. The point I was trying to articulate: hobbies with linear returns traded tomorrow’s increased happiness for today’s happiness. Hobbies with compounding returns still get me today’s happiness! But, after investing in that type of hobby, tomorrow I’ll be capable of more “hobbies” than I am today. Especially when hobbies begin to cross-over (I.e. chemistry and glass blowing)!

Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago

Games and TV may mostly give a flat return, but I don't think that's the case with reading fiction. That hones your linguistic skills, your imagination and storytelling skills, can sometimes give you critical insights (e.g., the classic dystopias), and last but not least, can enhance your attention span in an age where many of us are used to jumping from short piece to short piece online and it seems difficult to gather enough time or attention to read a book. Of course you will learn even more if you read essays, but I think if reading books in general is widely regarded as a good thing to do, it's for good reason.

YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
This seems like you're comparing the likes of 1984 to the likes of Genshin Impact. If we instead choose Opus Magnum as our example of a game, and 50 Shades of Grey for as our example of a book, one would conclude the opposite. Someone with a taste for timewasting games isn't going to suddenly become an intellectual because they picked up a piece of dead tree if the words written on said dead tree are as empty as the game they just put down, and there's more than enough bland genre fiction out there for them to be attracted to.

newswasboring 4y ago

I find it weird that your gold standard of a good hobby is the ability to produce. I personally think those "fuzzier returns" you sort of disregarded are far more important. Also, particularly in video games, each time you engage in it you get better. I've been recently trying to get back into video games after over a decade of off time. The gap I feel is tremendous. Gamers have advanced so far ahead that a good gamer from 2000s will have incredible amount of trouble playing newer games.

parasti 4y ago
And yet, you are only "getting better" at the game. Your in-game skills don't translate to the real world. Games have psychological and social benefits, but I don't think getting better at a game skillwise has really any transferrable value outside of the game itself. In fact, if you put more effort into improving your in-game skill, your real-world life usually suffers. (In my experience.)
- Joeri 4y ago
  But to serious gamers, those interactions in and around those games are their real world. Say someone dedicates themselves to learning the piano, a Real World activity, and they enjoy it, and they can entertain others with their skill, why is that any more real than getting deep into a game? In the end we all die and take nothing with us, nor do we leave anything behind which will last all that long. If everything is ultimately futile, why make a distinction between one pursuit and another?
  - newswasboring 4y ago
    I second your sentiment, I think this articulates my thinking much better. I see people trying to prove that yes games have "transferrable skills" to "real life" and I am sitting here thinking, why does it matter? It's my hobby! PS: Used those quotes because I don't think people have clear idea about what they mean by those terms.
  - parasti 4y ago
    > In the end we all die and take nothing with us, nor do we leave anything behind which will last all that long. If everything is ultimately futile, why make a distinction between one pursuit and another? This viewpoint is destructive. Your actions affect your future and the futures of the people around you. They are not futile. When someone learns to play the piano, it becomes a tool that can be used in countless applications in a person's life. When you learn to wall jump in Metroid, you learn to wall jump in Metroid and maybe in some other games. The variety of application just isn't there. It's just not comparable.

YurgenJurgensen 4y ago

The productivity of most so-called 'productive' hobbies is an illusion. What does it mean to 'produce'? To transform something that doesn't have value into something that does have value? Value to whom? The output of the majority of hobbyists' work has no value to anyone but themselves, and if it has no value to anyone but the creator, it's just consumption with extra steps. And if it has financial value to other people, that's not hobby, that's a second job. There's a reason why most artistic pursuits are either completely nonviable as a profession or are a lottery where the top 0.01% become superstars and the rest barely break even or lose money. When the thing one 'produces' is something people will do for fun, supply massively outstrips demand, and more entries into the hobby doesn't produce more valuable items, it produces more tat that nobody wants.

trwhite 4y ago
I don't think they're talking about a physical 'product'. They're talking about building character, making themself a better person, learning a skill etc
- YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
  If it's all about perceived self-improvement with no consideration for real-world applications or end products, there's no difference between practical skills and virtual ones. All that matters is that the person in question believes the experience to be valuable. EDIT: I guess it's worth mentioning a minor exception for basic life skills that some people do as hobbies, like sewing, gardening, DIY or cooking, but those have diminishing returns. You can probably learn everything you need to know to not be reliant on tradesmen or vendors for those sorts of things in a year, and beyond that you get stuck in the same place as the hobby craftsman or hobby artist, where the chance of real financial success is basically nil so you're just doing it because it's an activity you personally enjoy.
  - r3trohack3r 4y ago
    I can follow this. But where I’m getting tripped up: today I smoked out of a glass pipe I made. I can’t smoke out of my level 80 night elf druid. Nor can I combine my level 80 night elf druid with my Diamond IV rank in Halo to get a compounded return. Those two games and skills are isolated. But I can combine what I read in John Dalton’s A New System of Chemical Philosophy with glass blowing to make interesting things that bring me joy (I.e. replicating experiments of John’s at home with purpose built glassware) It’s not just production for productions sake, or production for the sake of society. It’s increasing my capacity to produce for myself. I feel like I’ve grown in a way that I can build on tomorrow after a session of practicing this class of hobby. Maybe the distinction truly is arbitrary - but something about this path feels significantly more fulfilling the further down it I go vs. the literal years I spent in virtual worlds. In the virtual worlds the potential felt roughly constant while these hobbies feel like they have an ever expanding horizon of potential.