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They said that the world is bad software on top of bad software, so it’s not one thing. It’s everything being bad and working around everything else being bad.

voidfunc 4y ago
Yea but they didn’t explain why its bad. Software devs complaining about “bad software” is basically an industry trope at this point but often it just means “Its too complex and I don’t understand why that complexity is probably necessary” or “Its not written the way I would have written it”.
arinlen 4y ago
> They said that the world is bad software on top of bad software, so it’s not one thing. I don't know about OP, but I personally feel like software like GCC/clang/MSVC and Debian/Ubuntu and Docker and SSH and Git are pretty great, and were never better. Heck, the whole dotnet ecosystem is turning some significant problems in developer experience into at most minor nuisances. Even Firefox+Chrome are stellar, and extremely solid as-is. Where exactly is this bad software OP is talking about?
- happymellon 4y ago
  In my experience it's the custom scripts in an attempt to separate infra from developers. If you are using one of the major cloud providers and instead of just using a native IaC scripts, you have decided that it would be better if the developers only had access to your custom kubernetes operators to manage their infrastructure then you are the problem. If you are using a deployment pipeline that developers have zero involvement in, and they just "import your Jenkins scripts" then you are the problem. If you are using major cloud provider and rather than just using their managed kubernetes, you have decided to deploy your own, then the chances are that you are the problem. Rarely have these approaches ever been stable, in my 20+ year experience they have never been stable. And they are the reason that "real DevOps" came along because developers could do a better job with less downtime if people actually engaged them.

voidfunc 4y ago

Yea but they didn’t explain why its bad. Software devs complaining about “bad software” is basically an industry trope at this point but often it just means “Its too complex and I don’t understand why that complexity is probably necessary” or “Its not written the way I would have written it”.

arinlen 4y ago

> They said that the world is bad software on top of bad software, so it’s not one thing. I don't know about OP, but I personally feel like software like GCC/clang/MSVC and Debian/Ubuntu and Docker and SSH and Git are pretty great, and were never better. Heck, the whole dotnet ecosystem is turning some significant problems in developer experience into at most minor nuisances. Even Firefox+Chrome are stellar, and extremely solid as-is. Where exactly is this bad software OP is talking about?

happymellon 4y ago
In my experience it's the custom scripts in an attempt to separate infra from developers. If you are using one of the major cloud providers and instead of just using a native IaC scripts, you have decided that it would be better if the developers only had access to your custom kubernetes operators to manage their infrastructure then you are the problem. If you are using a deployment pipeline that developers have zero involvement in, and they just "import your Jenkins scripts" then you are the problem. If you are using major cloud provider and rather than just using their managed kubernetes, you have decided to deploy your own, then the chances are that you are the problem. Rarely have these approaches ever been stable, in my 20+ year experience they have never been stable. And they are the reason that "real DevOps" came along because developers could do a better job with less downtime if people actually engaged them.