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That is utter BS. DevOps means Ops and Devs working hand in hand in a crossfunctional team. Nothing more, nothing less. The main idea was to tear down silos.

dijit 4y ago
> That is utter BS. This is not conducive to the desired environment. On a more even note I would prefer you spend some time looking at the origins of devops and what it means, it’s a contentious term because it means different things to different people. The original “Patrick Dubois” (founder of the term) meaning was Systems Administration in an agile fashion. I suspect that you’re repeating what someone else told you and you’ve just adopted their definition, which is fine, but part of the issue I have with the term myself is that everyone has another meaning than everyone else.
saurik 4y ago
Well, you can't simultaneously tear down silos and continue to have two silos... I would hope that would be obvious? The new cross-functional team is made up of the Dev people who are now doing Ops and the Ops people who are now doing Dev, with everyone else no longer fitting into the new DevOps reality, which was itself born from the premise that cloud computing was simply obsoleting the floor of dedicated systems administrators you previously had building machines and coordinating workloads and replacing it with a new deployment paradigm where a developer could develop their operations as easily as as they can develop anywhere else in the product's stack. If you have a special DevOps team you hire people into that is simply a renaming of the people you previously had doing Ops, you either haven't internalized this future or are actively rejecting it (which, I will emphatically state, is a perfectly fair position to maintain) and of course are going to "fail" at DevOps.
- tbrownaw 4y ago
  > Well, you can't simultaneously tear down silos and continue to have two silos... I would hope that would be obvious? The new cross-functional team is made up of the Dev people who are now doing Ops and the Ops people who are now doing Dev, with everyone else no longer fitting into the new DevOps reality, There's a project I'm tangentially involved in, that has app tiers written in different languages where the devs in either tier don't actually know the language of the other tier. They're still on the same team; they talk at the morning meeting, they work together to get things done, they have the same overall set of goals. Despite not doing eachother's work (or even being able to), they're not in silos. There's no throwing stuff over the wall.
Viliam1234 4y ago
> DevOps means Ops and Devs working hand in hand in a crossfunctional team. Not sure how typical is my experience, but in my experience it always meant "ops is yet another task for the Devs". Seems like this is a good interview question: "What does 'DevOps' specifically mean in your company?"
- evilduck 4y ago
  Coming from the other direction, I've hired for DevOps roles a couple times and as a hiring manager one of my very first first questions to a candidate is to ask them to define DevOps, then ask them to define their previous role(s) against that ideal because DevOps is so broadly used as a title. It's a great question because it finds misalignment rapidly. Post a job for DevOps and you'll get everything from old-school sysadmins to software developers of all flavors to AWS Certified Somethings applying.

dijit 4y ago

> That is utter BS. This is not conducive to the desired environment. On a more even note I would prefer you spend some time looking at the origins of devops and what it means, it’s a contentious term because it means different things to different people. The original “Patrick Dubois” (founder of the term) meaning was Systems Administration in an agile fashion. I suspect that you’re repeating what someone else told you and you’ve just adopted their definition, which is fine, but part of the issue I have with the term myself is that everyone has another meaning than everyone else.

saurik 4y ago

Well, you can't simultaneously tear down silos and continue to have two silos... I would hope that would be obvious? The new cross-functional team is made up of the Dev people who are now doing Ops and the Ops people who are now doing Dev, with everyone else no longer fitting into the new DevOps reality, which was itself born from the premise that cloud computing was simply obsoleting the floor of dedicated systems administrators you previously had building machines and coordinating workloads and replacing it with a new deployment paradigm where a developer could develop their operations as easily as as they can develop anywhere else in the product's stack. If you have a special DevOps team you hire people into that is simply a renaming of the people you previously had doing Ops, you either haven't internalized this future or are actively rejecting it (which, I will emphatically state, is a perfectly fair position to maintain) and of course are going to "fail" at DevOps.

tbrownaw 4y ago
> Well, you can't simultaneously tear down silos and continue to have two silos... I would hope that would be obvious? The new cross-functional team is made up of the Dev people who are now doing Ops and the Ops people who are now doing Dev, with everyone else no longer fitting into the new DevOps reality, There's a project I'm tangentially involved in, that has app tiers written in different languages where the devs in either tier don't actually know the language of the other tier. They're still on the same team; they talk at the morning meeting, they work together to get things done, they have the same overall set of goals. Despite not doing eachother's work (or even being able to), they're not in silos. There's no throwing stuff over the wall.

Viliam1234 4y ago

> DevOps means Ops and Devs working hand in hand in a crossfunctional team. Not sure how typical is my experience, but in my experience it always meant "ops is yet another task for the Devs". Seems like this is a good interview question: "What does 'DevOps' specifically mean in your company?"

evilduck 4y ago
Coming from the other direction, I've hired for DevOps roles a couple times and as a hiring manager one of my very first first questions to a candidate is to ask them to define DevOps, then ask them to define their previous role(s) against that ideal because DevOps is so broadly used as a title. It's a great question because it finds misalignment rapidly. Post a job for DevOps and you'll get everything from old-school sysadmins to software developers of all flavors to AWS Certified Somethings applying.