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> Could J. K. Rowling require Harry Potter readers to follow a code of conduct? Nobody attempts to apply codes of conduct to users of software - that's the dom

> Could J. K. Rowling require Harry Potter readers to follow a code of conduct? Nobody attempts to apply codes of conduct to users of software - that's the domain of the license agreement. They only apply to communities. Virtually every online community around harry potter has some set of rules for participating in that community. e.g. https://stories.jkrowling.com/terms-of-use/ https://stories.jkrowling.com/terms-of-use/ > Could Werner Heisenberg demand that you subscribe to a code of conduct if you want to do quantum physics? Heisenberg was the post-ww2 president of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics (quickly renamed the Max Planck Institute post war) - which was involved in human "medical" experimentation in nazi concentration camps. During his governence: "after 1945 neither active participants in the Third Reich nor hangers-on were called to account" - https://www.mpg.de/history/kws-under-national-socialism https://www.mpg.de/history/kws-under-national-socialism So a guy who presided over an organization that didn't bother to clean house after being directly involved in the fucking holocaust isn't exactly my go-to for how to run a healthy community.

claytongulick 4y ago
So, you skipped over the point and went directly to the ad-hominem. Do you learn much with this approach?
- kennywinker 4y ago
  I did learn a bunch, I went on a bit of a dive refreshing what I knew about the MPI and Heisenberg. Interesting stuff. But back to your point. Your point was made using two examples. Bad examples, in my opinion, since the first doesn't apply (consumption of work vs collaboration) and the second one also doesn't apply (building on others work vs collaboration). Your further point about watching what people do vs what they say they do is a reasonable point, but doesn't have much to do with the value of a code of conduct. I'm pretty much in agreement, that's the best way to proceed when collaborating with a single individual - but communities are more than the sum of their parts. If there are three people collaborating on a project, and one swears a lot in their commits, and one prefers a lack of swearing, and one doesn't care either way - how do you resolve that conflict? Nothing you've said offers a useful tool to navigate that situation.
  - kragen 4y ago
    You seem to have me confused with someone else.
    - kennywinker 4y ago
      Yes you’re quite right - I didn’t notice that that reply wasn’t from you.
kragen 4y ago
I'm glad you started to pick up on the subtle point about Heisenberg, but it sounds like you stopped halfway. What would be the consequences of allowing Heisenberg to dictate codes of conduct for quantum physicists today, or Wagner to dictate codes of conduct for performers of his operas? I addressed the point about when codes of conduct apply to users of software in the document linked.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  > What would be the consequences of allowing Heisenberg to dictate codes of conduct for quantum physicists today He couldn’t. All he could do would be to dictate the code of conduct for physicists working at the MPI. And if you don’t like his code of conduct, you can go to a different institute, or take it up with the community or the board of directors for the institute. Your implied scenario of “what if a nazi wrote a code of conduct” doesn’t scare me because the only thing worse than a nazi is a nazi in hiding. And if the code of conduct contains no nazi agenda, well then he can be held accountable if he does something against the code of conduct (like, for example, being a nazi)
  - kragen 4y ago
    > He couldn’t. All he could do would be to dictate the code of conduct for physicists working at the MPI And that's precisely why I think it's absurd for a code repository to have a code of conduct.
    - kennywinker 4y ago
      What’s the categorical difference between the nodejs repo and the max planck institute that it’s ok for one to have a code of conduct but not the other?
      - kragen 4y ago
        One is a piece of software, governed (one hopes) by the terms of its license if at all, and the other is a group of people, or (according to some people's beliefs) some sort of incorporeal tulpa-like entity whose activities are carried out in the material plane by a group of people. I don't know why you keep asking me questions that are answered in the document I linked at the top of the thread. It's less than 1000 words long, you can read it in three minutes.

claytongulick 4y ago

So, you skipped over the point and went directly to the ad-hominem. Do you learn much with this approach?

kennywinker 4y ago
I did learn a bunch, I went on a bit of a dive refreshing what I knew about the MPI and Heisenberg. Interesting stuff. But back to your point. Your point was made using two examples. Bad examples, in my opinion, since the first doesn't apply (consumption of work vs collaboration) and the second one also doesn't apply (building on others work vs collaboration). Your further point about watching what people do vs what they say they do is a reasonable point, but doesn't have much to do with the value of a code of conduct. I'm pretty much in agreement, that's the best way to proceed when collaborating with a single individual - but communities are more than the sum of their parts. If there are three people collaborating on a project, and one swears a lot in their commits, and one prefers a lack of swearing, and one doesn't care either way - how do you resolve that conflict? Nothing you've said offers a useful tool to navigate that situation.
- kragen 4y ago
  You seem to have me confused with someone else.
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    Yes you’re quite right - I didn’t notice that that reply wasn’t from you.

kragen 4y ago

I'm glad you started to pick up on the subtle point about Heisenberg, but it sounds like you stopped halfway. What would be the consequences of allowing Heisenberg to dictate codes of conduct for quantum physicists today, or Wagner to dictate codes of conduct for performers of his operas? I addressed the point about when codes of conduct apply to users of software in the document linked.

kennywinker 4y ago
> What would be the consequences of allowing Heisenberg to dictate codes of conduct for quantum physicists today He couldn’t. All he could do would be to dictate the code of conduct for physicists working at the MPI. And if you don’t like his code of conduct, you can go to a different institute, or take it up with the community or the board of directors for the institute. Your implied scenario of “what if a nazi wrote a code of conduct” doesn’t scare me because the only thing worse than a nazi is a nazi in hiding. And if the code of conduct contains no nazi agenda, well then he can be held accountable if he does something against the code of conduct (like, for example, being a nazi)
- kragen 4y ago
  > He couldn’t. All he could do would be to dictate the code of conduct for physicists working at the MPI And that's precisely why I think it's absurd for a code repository to have a code of conduct.
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    What’s the categorical difference between the nodejs repo and the max planck institute that it’s ok for one to have a code of conduct but not the other?
    - kragen 4y ago
      One is a piece of software, governed (one hopes) by the terms of its license if at all, and the other is a group of people, or (according to some people's beliefs) some sort of incorporeal tulpa-like entity whose activities are carried out in the material plane by a group of people. I don't know why you keep asking me questions that are answered in the document I linked at the top of the thread. It's less than 1000 words long, you can read it in three minutes.