5 ms·

The fact that repositories even have "codes of conduct" is Orwellian on one hand and a sign of idiocracy on the other.

kragen 4y ago
Yeah, my commentary on this nonsense is at https://gitlab.com/kragen/bubbleos/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md https://gitlab.com/kragen/bubbleos/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDU.... > Could J. K. Rowling require Harry Potter readers to follow a code of conduct? Could Werner Heisenberg demand that you subscribe to a code of conduct if you want to do quantum physics? ... > Codes of conduct typically make laudable promises such as “We pledge to respect all people,” in an attempt to convince readers that they [the authors] will behave laudably. In my experience, though, people who put a lot of effort into telling you how laudably they will behave do not behave any any more laudably than other people do — slightly the contrary, in fact. ... > ... I expect that I’ll be delighted if you send me patches and bug reports, but on that count I make no promises. Feel free to send them repeatedly through different channels if you don’t get a response at first, since I often don’t notice things. If you like how I respond when you send me patches or bug reports, then maybe it would be a good idea to do more of it. If you don’t like it, then maybe you would be happier if you stopped. I’ll do my best to be polite, but I screw that up pretty often, to be honest. ... > But, as I said before, what humans tell you they will do is not a very reliable predictor of what they will do. If you want to know what to expect of them, look at their past behavior. Don’t just look at their self-reports of their past behavior, although admissions against interest there can be quite revealing; look at traces it has left that they cannot delete, such as your own memory, mailing list archives, past Gitlab issues, and other people talking about them.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  > Could J. K. Rowling require Harry Potter readers to follow a code of conduct? Nobody attempts to apply codes of conduct to users of software - that's the domain of the license agreement. They only apply to communities. Virtually every online community around harry potter has some set of rules for participating in that community. e.g. https://stories.jkrowling.com/terms-of-use/ https://stories.jkrowling.com/terms-of-use/ > Could Werner Heisenberg demand that you subscribe to a code of conduct if you want to do quantum physics? Heisenberg was the post-ww2 president of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics (quickly renamed the Max Planck Institute post war) - which was involved in human "medical" experimentation in nazi concentration camps. During his governence: "after 1945 neither active participants in the Third Reich nor hangers-on were called to account" - https://www.mpg.de/history/kws-under-national-socialism https://www.mpg.de/history/kws-under-national-socialism So a guy who presided over an organization that didn't bother to clean house after being directly involved in the fucking holocaust isn't exactly my go-to for how to run a healthy community.
  - claytongulick 4y ago
    So, you skipped over the point and went directly to the ad-hominem. Do you learn much with this approach?
    - kennywinker 4y ago
      I did learn a bunch, I went on a bit of a dive refreshing what I knew about the MPI and Heisenberg. Interesting stuff. But back to your point. Your point was made using two examples. Bad examples, in my opinion, since the first doesn't apply (consumption of work vs collaboration) and the second one also doesn't apply (building on others work vs collaboration). Your further point about watching what people do vs what they say they do is a reasonable point, but doesn't have much to do with the value of a code of conduct. I'm pretty much in agreement, that's the best way to proceed when collaborating with a single individual - but communities are more than the sum of their parts. If there are three people collaborating on a project, and one swears a lot in their commits, and one prefers a lack of swearing, and one doesn't care either way - how do you resolve that conflict? Nothing you've said offers a useful tool to navigate that situation.
      - kragen 4y ago
        You seem to have me confused with someone else.
        kennywinker 4y ago
        Yes you’re quite right - I didn’t notice that that reply wasn’t from you.
  - kragen 4y ago
    I'm glad you started to pick up on the subtle point about Heisenberg, but it sounds like you stopped halfway. What would be the consequences of allowing Heisenberg to dictate codes of conduct for quantum physicists today, or Wagner to dictate codes of conduct for performers of his operas? I addressed the point about when codes of conduct apply to users of software in the document linked.
meibo 4y ago
"We (the maintainers) don't want to work with you if you do/believe X" seems quite sane to me, it's their choice after all. If you don't like it, fork it or move along. Code of conducts are supposed to regulate how contributors to the project interact. Especially nowadays, where projects can come with a significant social aspect/dynamic, this becomes important.
- CRConrad 4y ago
  > Code of conducts Codes of conduct.
voxl 4y ago
If you want to participate in someone else's space you have to abide by their boundaries, an open source project is not yours to be an asshole in

Yeah, my commentary on this nonsense is at https://gitlab.com/kragen/bubbleos/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md https://gitlab.com/kragen/bubbleos/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDU.... > Could J. K. Rowling require Harry Potter readers to follow a code of conduct? Could Werner Heisenberg demand that you subscribe to a code of conduct if you want to do quantum physics? ... > Codes of conduct typically make laudable promises such as “We pledge to respect all people,” in an attempt to convince readers that they [the authors] will behave laudably. In my experience, though, people who put a lot of effort into telling you how laudably they will behave do not behave any any more laudably than other people do — slightly the contrary, in fact. ... > ... I expect that I’ll be delighted if you send me patches and bug reports, but on that count I make no promises. Feel free to send them repeatedly through different channels if you don’t get a response at first, since I often don’t notice things. If you like how I respond when you send me patches or bug reports, then maybe it would be a good idea to do more of it. If you don’t like it, then maybe you would be happier if you stopped. I’ll do my best to be polite, but I screw that up pretty often, to be honest. ... > But, as I said before, what humans tell you they will do is not a very reliable predictor of what they will do. If you want to know what to expect of them, look at their past behavior. Don’t just look at their self-reports of their past behavior, although admissions against interest there can be quite revealing; look at traces it has left that they cannot delete, such as your own memory, mailing list archives, past Gitlab issues, and other people talking about them.

kennywinker 4y ago
> Could J. K. Rowling require Harry Potter readers to follow a code of conduct? Nobody attempts to apply codes of conduct to users of software - that's the domain of the license agreement. They only apply to communities. Virtually every online community around harry potter has some set of rules for participating in that community. e.g. https://stories.jkrowling.com/terms-of-use/ https://stories.jkrowling.com/terms-of-use/ > Could Werner Heisenberg demand that you subscribe to a code of conduct if you want to do quantum physics? Heisenberg was the post-ww2 president of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics (quickly renamed the Max Planck Institute post war) - which was involved in human "medical" experimentation in nazi concentration camps. During his governence: "after 1945 neither active participants in the Third Reich nor hangers-on were called to account" - https://www.mpg.de/history/kws-under-national-socialism https://www.mpg.de/history/kws-under-national-socialism So a guy who presided over an organization that didn't bother to clean house after being directly involved in the fucking holocaust isn't exactly my go-to for how to run a healthy community.
- claytongulick 4y ago
  So, you skipped over the point and went directly to the ad-hominem. Do you learn much with this approach?
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    I did learn a bunch, I went on a bit of a dive refreshing what I knew about the MPI and Heisenberg. Interesting stuff. But back to your point. Your point was made using two examples. Bad examples, in my opinion, since the first doesn't apply (consumption of work vs collaboration) and the second one also doesn't apply (building on others work vs collaboration). Your further point about watching what people do vs what they say they do is a reasonable point, but doesn't have much to do with the value of a code of conduct. I'm pretty much in agreement, that's the best way to proceed when collaborating with a single individual - but communities are more than the sum of their parts. If there are three people collaborating on a project, and one swears a lot in their commits, and one prefers a lack of swearing, and one doesn't care either way - how do you resolve that conflict? Nothing you've said offers a useful tool to navigate that situation.
    - kragen 4y ago
      You seem to have me confused with someone else.
      - kennywinker 4y ago
        Yes you’re quite right - I didn’t notice that that reply wasn’t from you.
- kragen 4y ago
  I'm glad you started to pick up on the subtle point about Heisenberg, but it sounds like you stopped halfway. What would be the consequences of allowing Heisenberg to dictate codes of conduct for quantum physicists today, or Wagner to dictate codes of conduct for performers of his operas? I addressed the point about when codes of conduct apply to users of software in the document linked.

meibo 4y ago

"We (the maintainers) don't want to work with you if you do/believe X" seems quite sane to me, it's their choice after all. If you don't like it, fork it or move along. Code of conducts are supposed to regulate how contributors to the project interact. Especially nowadays, where projects can come with a significant social aspect/dynamic, this becomes important.

CRConrad 4y ago
> Code of conducts Codes of conduct.

voxl 4y ago

If you want to participate in someone else's space you have to abide by their boundaries, an open source project is not yours to be an asshole in