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"This document continues to be used for its original purpose - providing a reference to fill in the "code of conduct" box on supplier registration forms."

thrown_22 4y ago
I remember the code of conduct push overnight on all open source projects. It was such a bizarre time. What's worse is that pretty much everyone folded.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  What would you consider the best response to the desire for clear boundaries and expectations from project communities?
  - vinyl7 4y ago
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me"
  - teakettle42 4y ago
    The best response? “No”. The code of conduct push was a transparent game of social aggression — an attempt to shift open source power dynamics in favor of: (1) Allowing social activists, who could not acquire institutional power on the basis of their own technical merit, to co-opt open source institutions for their own aims and to extract resources. See also the contributor covenant, DEI consultants, et al. (2) Securing the necessary power structures to enforce the beliefs of their particular vein of progressive political activism. In my experience being very involved with a few large projects that were pressured into adopting a code of conduct, the historically most toxic and socially aggressive personalities in the project became the biggest proponents of adopting a code of conduct, engaging in bad faith and with extreme social aggression to tear down any detractors, hiding behind their newfound righteousness as a defense.
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      So a few bad apples has ruined the whole idea in your mind? Are you also satisfied with the diversity within the project communities that you contribute to?
      - BeFlatXIII 4y ago
        Being part of the most diverse possible team simply isn't a priority and mostly seems to function as a distracting sideshow for the benefit of the fundraising wings of the organization/project.
      - teakettle42 4y ago
        > So a few bad apples has ruined the whole idea in your mind? It’s not a few. They’re primarily a tool for bad actors to secure institutional power. However, even if we take the surface-level arguments for a code of conduct in good faith, the entire concept is rooted in the premise that a healthy community arises out of strictly codifying social norms and permissible beliefs, imbuing a central, unaccountable authority with the power to police and enforce those norms, and treating dissension with this approach as a moral failing in of itself. > Are you also satisfied with the diversity within the project communities that you contribute to? I don’t know how to answer that question; can you define “diversity” for me? What personal attributes should I poll from all contributors to measure their diversity? Do you have a score sheet I can use? What does it mean if our “diversity score” is too low? What does that have to do with a code of conduct?
        paulryanrogers 4y ago
        Without clear boundaries around conduct many communities become toxic. In gaming (playing and related projects) for example it pushes out girls and women, or at least to hide their gender. Forums have long had rules, spoken or unspoken. Making them more explicit is helpful IME.
        astrange 4y ago
        The point of explicit forum rules is more to control the mods than the users. Users don’t read them, they just pick up tacit knowledge from what gets moderated. The most useful thing you could have in a CoC would be declaring who’s responsible for making decisions about it.
  - thrown_22 4y ago
    Mockery and derision. Anyone who needs a document to understand what is acceptable and what isn't is not someone who you want in any project.
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      We were all young and ignorant once. My journey to community projects started at 17, and the forum rules common in that era did help me grow up a bit. Even if I was sometimes a nuisance. Answering reasonable requests for clarity in a community with mockery and derision doesn't sound like a very welcoming place.
      - thrown_22 4y ago
        It doesn't. Which is why it gave us Linux.
        paulryanrogers 4y ago
        Wait, what gave us Linux? An unwelcoming culture of mockery and derision?! If so I'd argue Linux succeeded in spite of Linus's prickly personality. Certainly not because of it.
        thrown_22 4y ago
        There are a dozen open source kernels yet only one succeeded. It was absolutely Linus's no bullshit policy that made it a success and a target.
        paulryanrogers 4y ago
        Plenty of projects are run by assholes. Finding one that is successful and attributing that success to abrasive communication style is confirmation bias. Even Linus has said his past behavior has been a problem.
        4y ago

thrown_22 4y ago

I remember the code of conduct push overnight on all open source projects. It was such a bizarre time. What's worse is that pretty much everyone folded.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
What would you consider the best response to the desire for clear boundaries and expectations from project communities?
- vinyl7 4y ago
  "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me"
- teakettle42 4y ago
  The best response? “No”. The code of conduct push was a transparent game of social aggression — an attempt to shift open source power dynamics in favor of: (1) Allowing social activists, who could not acquire institutional power on the basis of their own technical merit, to co-opt open source institutions for their own aims and to extract resources. See also the contributor covenant, DEI consultants, et al. (2) Securing the necessary power structures to enforce the beliefs of their particular vein of progressive political activism. In my experience being very involved with a few large projects that were pressured into adopting a code of conduct, the historically most toxic and socially aggressive personalities in the project became the biggest proponents of adopting a code of conduct, engaging in bad faith and with extreme social aggression to tear down any detractors, hiding behind their newfound righteousness as a defense.
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    So a few bad apples has ruined the whole idea in your mind? Are you also satisfied with the diversity within the project communities that you contribute to?
    - BeFlatXIII 4y ago
      Being part of the most diverse possible team simply isn't a priority and mostly seems to function as a distracting sideshow for the benefit of the fundraising wings of the organization/project.
    - teakettle42 4y ago
      > So a few bad apples has ruined the whole idea in your mind? It’s not a few. They’re primarily a tool for bad actors to secure institutional power. However, even if we take the surface-level arguments for a code of conduct in good faith, the entire concept is rooted in the premise that a healthy community arises out of strictly codifying social norms and permissible beliefs, imbuing a central, unaccountable authority with the power to police and enforce those norms, and treating dissension with this approach as a moral failing in of itself. > Are you also satisfied with the diversity within the project communities that you contribute to? I don’t know how to answer that question; can you define “diversity” for me? What personal attributes should I poll from all contributors to measure their diversity? Do you have a score sheet I can use? What does it mean if our “diversity score” is too low? What does that have to do with a code of conduct?
      - paulryanrogers 4y ago
        Without clear boundaries around conduct many communities become toxic. In gaming (playing and related projects) for example it pushes out girls and women, or at least to hide their gender. Forums have long had rules, spoken or unspoken. Making them more explicit is helpful IME.
        astrange 4y ago
        The point of explicit forum rules is more to control the mods than the users. Users don’t read them, they just pick up tacit knowledge from what gets moderated. The most useful thing you could have in a CoC would be declaring who’s responsible for making decisions about it.
- thrown_22 4y ago
  Mockery and derision. Anyone who needs a document to understand what is acceptable and what isn't is not someone who you want in any project.
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    We were all young and ignorant once. My journey to community projects started at 17, and the forum rules common in that era did help me grow up a bit. Even if I was sometimes a nuisance. Answering reasonable requests for clarity in a community with mockery and derision doesn't sound like a very welcoming place.
    - thrown_22 4y ago
      It doesn't. Which is why it gave us Linux.
      - paulryanrogers 4y ago
        Wait, what gave us Linux? An unwelcoming culture of mockery and derision?! If so I'd argue Linux succeeded in spite of Linus's prickly personality. Certainly not because of it.
        thrown_22 4y ago
        There are a dozen open source kernels yet only one succeeded. It was absolutely Linus's no bullshit policy that made it a success and a target.
        paulryanrogers 4y ago
        Plenty of projects are run by assholes. Finding one that is successful and attributing that success to abrasive communication style is confirmation bias. Even Linus has said his past behavior has been a problem.
        4y ago